Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

MikeD · 03-17-2003, 04:11 PM

Does anyone use the Italian grip, and if so, what are its advantages and drawbacks? I have an old Italian grip practice foil. Thanks.

DHCJr · 03-17-2003, 05:27 PM

There are not many who currently use the Italian grip. We only have one in our division. When the sport of fencing first started there was only two types of handles allowed French/Straight and the Italian. They were on the extreme ends. French/Straight was for finess and speed, while the Italian was strength. When you a matingale/strap, it is like strapping the weapon to your arm. Even without the martingale, the wrist movement was more limited than with the French/straight.

All the different types of pistol grips are a compromise between the two originals. They are trying to have more strength the the French/straight and more dexterity than the Italian. The key answers on what handle is best for anyone is the size of the hand and what style you are trying to achieve.

I have not used the Italian, so my answer is as an observer for many years.

pkt · 03-17-2003, 05:44 PM

I have used the Italian grip - yes, I'm that old...

.
The strap gives one - as DHC Jr observed - strength. But what one gives up is the oprion to do disengagements. One is more restricted to doing coupes. A lot of coupes.

It is fun though.

One holds an Italian grip like a French grip but hooks the middle finger around the crossbar in the grip.

Then there is the 'Gardere' grip.
Imagine a French grip -
'Oh, don't you mean a 'Freedom' grip?' 'No, I mean a FRENCH grip.'
- with things sprouting out to form an ortho grip.
Thus one'd have the benefit of both the French and an ortho grip.
See:
http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Foil_Handles.html
The more things change the more they stay the same. I guess demand for the gardere is so good that Leon Paul put it as the first item in their handles part of their catalogue.

PK

DHCJr · 03-17-2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pkt
The more things change the more they stay the same. I guess demand for the gardere is so good that Leon Paul put it as the first item in their handles part of their catalogue.

PK

Which is very strange, considering it is one handle that is not legal in any competition!

Style · 03-17-2003, 07:44 PM

I use italian (except when I fence sabre . . . duh).

I don't use the wrist strap though, I like freedom to move.

It's just personal preference. I feel retarded when I use pistol, and the french handle is too long for my liking.

Try all 3 grips and see which one you fence best with.

It · 03-18-2003, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
Which is very strange, considering it is one handle that is not legal in any competition!

Okay here we GO!

The Italian grip is Very legal in competition. If it weren't my name wouldn't be It! It would probally be Grippy. The strap is also legal for your information, in case some one may say otherwise. It may not be legal, the strap, when using the any other grip than the italian.

Back in the days some fencers would actually use straps on the wrist, tie downs on the middle and fore finger. This was to add strength to the arm.

Note: while using the wrist strap.

Some of the advantages to using the Italian are, strong beats, attacks on opposition, heavy parries, more point control.

Disadvantages are, flicke are near non-existant, in fighting is hard, less movement, you lose some defense, therer are no FIE blades to be found any more except....... well if I told ya I wouldn't have any for myself. Even though I did hoard as much as I could.

Also if you do use the Italian, make sure you use it right! ( I mean the correct way, not right as in right hand left hand that really dosen't matter ) It's very easy to use the Italian the wrong way and hurt yourself. I also don't want to disagree with pkt, but hooking the middle finger in the ring can can cause your finger to eventually start to lock. There's a fencer in So-Cal, I think, who fences with an Italian foil. He mentioned it to me. As a matter of a fact he also showed me and let me hear his finger. Also admitted he used it wrong for years until he found a real Italian coach.

tauman · 03-18-2003, 11:20 AM

What is the correct way to hold and Italian grip?

Steve

DJ Apostrophe · 03-18-2003, 11:42 AM

DHC was not saying the Italian is illegal... he was saying the Gardere grip is illegal... look at the line he was refering to...
-w

edew · 03-18-2003, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by It
Okay here we GO!

The Italian grip is Very legal in competition. If it weren't my name wouldn't be It! It would probally be Grippy. The strap is also legal for your information, in case some one may say otherwise. It may not be legal, the strap, when using the any other grip than the italian.

[...]

Don Clinton was referring to the Gardere as not being legal in any competition, not the italian grip.

Please learn to read the who thread and references.

No one of any competence use the italian grip. It's too limited to be able to do what is needed in the modern game.

The Gardere, while in theory looks like a great idea: take the best of the french and add the best of the pistol grips, is really a terrible contraption. I tried it once many years ago. It doesn't do either well. The prongs make the finger movements impossible, and the straight french style still makes the weapon hard to hold.

pkt · 03-18-2003, 01:59 PM

edew and DHC Jr,

I agree with both of you about the gardere: hence I've deep-6ed it for over 20 years... but I still have it.

But why is te gardere no longer legal for competition? Where in the rule does it say so?

I see nothing in m.4 that expressly fits the gardere grip. And you're right, DHC, to think it odd that Leon Paul is promoting it. So as a result of that I doubt the gardere is illegal for competitions. I've just written Leopn Paul for clarification.

I'll post the answer when I get it.

--)--------------

It,

Yeah, learn to read, eh?

PK

DHCJr · 03-18-2003, 02:27 PM

I have made this answer before, but it is interesting. Here in the United States, they tried to ban Assult Rifles by saying certain guns were not legal. The manufacturers just changed the names and they were suddenly legal again. If the FIE were to list in the rule book that the Gardere along with others were illegal, we could have a Gardere X, which would be legal.

Since you have some handles you can try this. Can you hold it further and further back while keeping the same control. In fact as you mentioned if you held it at the pommel, you probably would have even better control because you wouldn't have as many prongs to bind you up.

Listing by name, will not be effective. Listing by function is the only way that is effective. Of the handles that have been named in SEMI and FIE documents as being illegal, all have used French pommels. So a rule of thumb, if it has an external pommel, except for the French and Italian, consider it suspect.

edew · 03-18-2003, 02:29 PM

The rules expressedly disallow any grip that has any prongs which can be effectively held with the thumb more than 2cm from the inside of the guard.

It is clear that the gardere has prongs and other supporting thingees sticking out, and that one can effectively hold the grip and wield the weapon with the thumb more than 2cm away from the inside of the guard. Thus it can be disallowed immediately by inspection.

Of course, it cannot be banned by name alone, as one can easily change the name to something else.

pkt · 03-18-2003, 02:42 PM

Thanks, Barry.

I do have one of these gardere grips from about 25 years ao... :-)

Thank for for the quick turn around.

It's nice to be able to prove someone wrong.

PK

-----Original Message-----
From: Leon Paul [mailto:sales@leonpaul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:20 AM
To: pkt
Subject: Re: gardere grip

The gardere handle has been made by us for about 30 years. There is no rule which make these handles illegal. Ask anybody suggesting they are illegal to show you the rule that bans them. regards Barry

----- Original Message -----
From: pkt
To: F-supp LEON PAUL Barry & Laurence
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:43 PM
Subject: gardere grip

All,

I noticed that the gardere grip is the first item on your foil handles.
I was informed by a licensed armouror of the USFA that the gardere grip is NOT legal for competitions.
Can you illuminate me on the legality of the gardere grip?
I see nothing in m.4 of the FIE rules of competition that forbids the gardere grip.

Thank you.

PK

DHCJr · 03-18-2003, 02:50 PM

I know Barry, so when I can I'll try and contact him. Or I may have Dan DeChaine contact him.

Thank you for the heads-up.

neevel · 03-18-2003, 02:59 PM

Barry is wrong, and Don, Edew, et al are correct-- the Gardere is illegal, it was specifically the target of the languge in m.4, but was not listed by name for the exact reasons previously stated. One of Don's sources is Dan DeChaine, a member of the SEMI commission. Since SEMI were the ones who made that rule, their interpretation is the only one that matters, and that interpretation is that the Gardere and similar grips are not permitted. 'Nuff said.

-Dave

pkt · 03-18-2003, 03:15 PM

May I ask you all a simple question:
Have you seen or used a gardere grip?

The 2cm rule can easily be corrected as far as a gardere grip is concerned:
-it is made of plastic, a hack saw can easily cut it so it meets the 2 cm rule.
-The protrusions are no longer than those on a pistol grip...

I've 'invited' Barry to join us on this thread if he has time.

PK

DHCJr · 03-18-2003, 03:39 PM

Cutting it shorter will not change anything. I have a Gardere handle which I use for demonstration. When I hold it as it was designed to be held, my thumb is well within the 2cm. In fact I would be pushing up against the guard as I have a large hand. But, here is where rule M4 comes into play. I can move my hand back so my pointer finger is around the 2nd or 3rd bottom prong and I would still have the same control, but I have extended my reach.

Any handle can be shortened even metal handles. A Belgium, German or Visconte or any of the others could be illegal for some people because of the size and they could be shortened. What they don't have is the multiple prongs, all around the same size, plus the pommel to hold on to.

pkt · 03-18-2003, 03:52 PM

"But, here is where rule M4 comes into play. I can move my hand back so my pointer finger is around the 2nd or 3rd bottom prong and I would still have the same control, but I have extended my reach."

So, by the same logic, shouldn't the SEMI ban the French grip?

What is the real reason behind SEMI making the gardere illegal?

BTW, which is your 'pointer' finger? Is that the one the Pointers Sisters named themselves after?

PK

DHCJr · 03-18-2003, 04:37 PM

My test box with the 6 position switch, uses the lazy man approach. I'm afraid I get lazy and did not give the full explanation. I should have said M4.6. which talks about any device, special shape (orthopedic) that fixes the position of the hand. That is why the French/Straight is legal.

Sorry about not writing clearly.

edew · 03-18-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pkt
"But, here is where rule M4 comes into play. I can move my hand back so my pointer finger is around the 2nd or 3rd bottom prong and I would still have the same control, but I have extended my reach."

So, by the same logic, shouldn't the SEMI ban the French grip?

What is the real reason behind SEMI making the gardere illegal?

BTW, which is your 'pointer' finger? Is that the one the Pointers Sisters named themselves after?

PK

No, because the french grip does not have any prongs or protrusions to help secure the hand to the grip.

The reason for making any gardere-like grip illegal is basically a sense of fairness (and possibly safety), so that one can't both use the extendable reach functionality of a french grip with the added security of a pistol grip. Otherwise, one could possibly construct some weird grip which allows one to hold a weapon with complete security, but with some extreme added length.

The pointer finger is also known as the index finger. The one that the index sisters named themselves after.