Six Ten year-olds and One Gets an "E"

[vigia]

We just finished our Divisional Championships here in New England. This new system where Youth fencers get ratings in age-restricted tournaments is just wrong. Maybe it makes sense for Junior tournaments (and maybe -- only maybe -- Cadet), but giving out an E (or even a D!) to 10 and 12 year olds competeing among themselves is absurd. Let them compete at ratings restricted events, and if they can win those events, they get the rating just like everyone else.

Since ratings are to help seed events, the new system is just not going to do anything other than skew the pools. A 12 year-old with a D is going to be seeded higher than a senior fencer with an E. An E that was much, much harder to get and represents a much greater degree of skill.

There are youth fencers out there with decent ratings who have earned them. Their ratings fairly represent their strength as fencers when seeding the pools. In all likelyhood, they earned those ratings at National competitions or at Opens, or at least at non age-restricted events.

While the old system wasn't perfect, at least it provided some kind of consistency. In general, most of the time A's could defeat B's, B's defeat C's, etc. Throwing in kids with ratings from age-restricted events just skews everything really, really badly.

The USFA had to be compeletly asleep at the wheel on this one. Where and when was this discussed, and by whom? I can't find anybody who thinks it is a good idea. Any comers?

(And on a related note, I'm not convinced from what I've seen that ratings should be given out for mixed competitions either.)

[DHCJr]

You seem to argue for both ratings should only be given for Open competitions and in the last paragraph, you argue the opposite. Are you saying a lady should not be able earn a ranking in a mixed competition, but if was restricted to just ladies, it would be valid? Or are you saying, if a man earns a rating in a mixed competition, it shouldn't mean anything? Watch how you answer that.

There are restrictions for Youths to fence in Open Competitons, so how do you seed Youth tournaments, unless they have ratings?

There was a time when they 'Devalued' the ratings held by ladies in Mixed Competition. It caused a few problems. I don't think the USFA would try that again.

I just checked out your profile and found it very interesting. You are probably started fencing at the youngest age I have ever heard of. I thought 5 would be to young to start fencing, but 2 years old. Amazing!

[CvilleFencer]

From what you say it does seem a little wierd. However I would not mind fencing in a pool with a few 6 year old A's! In all seriousness, I have a couple of junior fencers that can easily win against some E's and even a couple of D's. Keep in mind that the seeding system is not like a belt system in martial arts, it is strictly for pool seeding.

The simple answer would be to say that if you are a 12 and under (or whatever) fencer and you fence in a senior tourney, unless you have a senior rate, you are unrated for the purpose of the competition. What do you think?

[CvilleFencer]

I just checked out your profile and found it very interesting. You are probably started fencing at the youngest age I have ever heard of. I thought 5 would be to young to start fencing, but 2 years old. Amazing! [/quote]

Ha! That is nothing. I can out of the womb practicing my "I can't believe they hit me" sabre scream and was working on my moves for epee while still in the crib!

[vigia]

You are right -- my last paragraph re mixed events contradicts the rest of what I was saying. I retract it.

I don't think I said ratings should only be given at opens. I think ratings-restricted events are fine. Just not age-restricted events that give ratings. Youth fencers are certainly entitled to fence at U, E, D, and C's. (Or am I wrong about that?)

If divisions want to distinguish among various youth fencers for seeding purposes, they are certainly entitled to issue Youth ratings YE, YD, YC if they want, but those ratings wouldn't transfer out of those local venues.

[vigia]

Originally posted by DHCJr


I just checked out your profile and found it very interesting. You are probably started fencing at the youngest age I have ever heard of. I thought 5 would be to young to start fencing, but 2 years old. Amazing!

I don't know what happened in my profile -- my birthday is 1958, not 1969...

[vigia]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer


The simple answer would be to say that if you are a 12 and under (or whatever) fencer and you fence in a senior tourney, unless you have a senior rate, you are unrated for the purpose of the competition. What do you think?

That works for me.

[Mo]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer

The simple answer would be to say that if you are a 12 and under (or whatever) fencer and you fence in a senior tourney, unless you have a senior rate, you are unrated for the purpose of the competition. What do you think?

You don't have to worry.
A Y12 fencer cannot fence with seniors unless they worked their way up. A youth 12 can qualify for Y14 at Summer Nationals.
If a Y12 fencer wants to fence in Cadet they have to have points in 14 AND qualify.
To fence in any senior event including opens at an NAC a Y12 fencer would have to have points in Junior which means they worked their way up from Y12 to Y14, Y14 to cadet, cadet to junior, and made points in each event.
To fence Senior or Division 1 they have to have points in Junior and at least a C rating.
While a Youth fencer can earn a "D" or even a "C" it is not at all easy. If a Y12 fencer is fencing in these events, they earned the right to be there.

[CvilleFencer]

Well then it is settled! Now we only have two convince the rest of the USFA membership of our position and get them to update the rules. Or we can find the 20 or so USFA members that actually vote and threaten them at gunpoint! I say gun and not sword as they might fence better than me, but I am willing to bet they are not better shots!

Seriously, given that the USFA seems to really be a rubber stamp agency for those cheese eating surrender monkeys at the FIE and to not be very caring for us non-international fencers or our issues, how would one go about making a common sense change like this?

I wonder if anyone at the USFA cares enough to make an issue of it. Or if the USFA cares about anything other than the top 5% of US fencers. (Those familiar with the speaker cringe as he moves towards one of his favorite soap boxes that stands very near a dead and mutilated equine...): )

[CvilleFencer]

Originally posted by Mo
You don't have to worry.
A Y12 fencer cannot fence with seniors unless they worked their way up. A youth 12 can qualify for Y14 at Summer Nationals.
If a Y12 fencer wants to fence in Cadet they have to have points in 14 AND qualify.
To fence in any senior event including opens at an NAC a Y12 fencer would have to have points in Junior which means they worked their way up from Y12 to Y14, Y14 to cadet, cadet to junior, and made points in each event.
To fence Senior or Division 1 they have to have points in Junior and at least a C rating.
While a Youth fencer can earn a "D" or even a "C" it is not at all easy. If a Y12 fencer is fencing in these events, they earned the right to be there.

Wow, that is a lot of information. Letters and numbers and abbreviations and stuff. You might as well have strewn the message with shiny things to distract me. I think I understand what you mean. If what you mean is that you have to have a juniors and youth ratings to fight in seniors events. Is that what you mean? Cause if it is that is not the way it works in Virginia. Or Maryland. Or D.C. Or Texas. Or Atlanta. Or anyplace else my team has fenced. I should explain that one.

I have a fellow in my competition club. He is 13. He is crazy good... For someone that is 4 1/2 feet tall, has the patience of a Chihuahua on Red Bull, and has not gone through puberty yet. He got his E in a youth tourney. He has never gotten very high in any of the other tourneys (seniors) we have fenced in, but he fences in them just the same and he counts as an E for seeding in the divisional system that we use in VA. Rather or not he is supposed to, that is the way it has worked, and he travels with the competition side of our club and has fought everywhere the rest of us have, always as an E.

Better example is a kid from VAF. He is like about 10 or so. He fences in opens. I believe he has an E and it must be a youth, as I have never seen him win a match. He is an easy kill for everyone at an open, and his parents berate him for "being a little loser and wasting their money" when he does not do well against A's and C's (Teammates frequently refrain me from going for the Schlager I keep in my bag whenever I am around his parents for long), but that is all beside the point.

Is there a rule about youth or junior fencing I do not know that is not being enforced. I am completely clueless about the way that Youth fencing is supposed to work (and about many other things too but I will admit to this one) but if there is some more information you could point me towards I would appreciate it.

Of course I could have completely misunderstood what you were trying to tell me and have missed the point completely. If so feel free to correct me about the head and shoulders with what I should have gotten in the first place but try not to leave any marks on my face!

[Mo]

Originally posted by CvilleFencer
Wow, that is a lot of information. Letters and numbers and abbreviations and stuff. You might as well have strewn the message with shiny things to distract me. I think I understand what you mean. If what you mean is that you have to have a juniors and youth ratings to fight in seniors events. Is that what you mean? Cause if it is that is not the way it works in Virginia. Or Maryland. Or D.C. Or Texas. Or Atlanta. Or anyplace else my team has fenced. I should explain that one.

Heehee, well I don't know about where you fence but it is true in NAC meets. Sorry for the shiney stuff
According to the USFA rules in the Athlete handbook,
Table 1-1: for NATIONAL Level Tournaments.
Maybe my lengthy explaination of rules was only for National Level NAC Tournaments.
I know they also apply at sectionals and the rules apply for any qualifier for NAC Tournaments too.
In local opens it may not matter I have no idea.

I took the question or the thread of this topic to be: It is not fair for a Y12 Fencer to get a what is considered by some a BOGUS rating and then be able to fence in a Senior event.

The "senior event" I took as an NAC or USFA Sponsored meet.
That sort of meet would not allow a Y12 Fencer to fence in the "Senior event" as in Division 1, Division 2 or Division 3, unless they have points in Junior and the appropriate rating.


I am going to find out about local opens events.

[JEC]

Most Open competitions require you being 13 or older. Thus, at the mid-range of the Youth categories.

Regarding ratings, when 80 or so Y10 fencers are competing there is a need for some form of ranking to make pools of somewhat equal value. Among Y10, you are not going to find C's, but only a few D's and E's. At Y12, you begin finding some C's, who would be not necessarily be easy prey for adult E's. In our salle, we have a 14 year old who won a Div. II men's epee NAC competition last year, and has a well-deserved "B".

[edew]

All national open (senior) events (senior NACs) are restricted to fencers 14 years or older, unless they have junior national points.

But many local or regional competitions do not have that age restriction. I don't think the national restriction applies to local competitions, although I can see how they might be applicable.

On the other hand, we have plenty of 10-12 years old fencers who have classifications up to C's and they do do well against adults who have D's and E's. The classifications are not so unrealistic as one might think.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Mo
You don't have to worry.
A Y12 fencer cannot fence with seniors unless they worked their way up. A youth 12 can qualify for Y14 at Summer Nationals.
(snip)
To fence Senior or Division 1 they have to have points in Junior and at least a C rating.
While a Youth fencer can earn a "D" or even a "C" it is not at all easy. If a Y12 fencer is fencing in these events, they earned the right to be there.

I think you are forgetting that kids often fence in local Open events...that's where the 'problems' come from.

Although, I would just like to say that I am not saying the change is bad...it just makes a tradeoff for different problems...

As I have said, (both in this forum, and RSF), most of the 'problems' that people complain about stem from the 'discontinuity' of people's competitive patterns, (i.e going to fence in a new region, or in a different group than normal) or the inconsistencies of people's competitive performance (i.e. someone is tired, sick, etc..., OR they actually IMPROVE, which is the whole point, is it not?), and NO system can really account for that up front, it is only a question of how quickly the system will change its treatment of an individual because of something that now is, or APPEARS to be, different about said individual.

Acknowledging the performance of little kids against each other, and equating that with the performance of adults against each other, might SEEM on the surface to be expected to result in little kids getting classified "above their 'true' skill level", but in fact, that is a specious argument.

The old 'system' (or rather old rule as the system really isn't that different, in structure.) as it has been for that past several years, always allowed for the possibility, however remote, that someone COULD go out to North Dakota, or outstate New Mexico, or any number of cities in Central California, and start teaching beginners, and having tournaments; If they had enough of them, (both beginners, AND tournaments) they would eventually be able to bootstrap themselves into a B4 Event*! Of course, this all would depend on their getting some pretty solid turnout of people the second year, as the C4, and B4 rquires 64 warm bodies...and of course the ODDS AGAINST such occurence would be fairly astronomical, even if you tried...BUT, nonetheless, the system allowed, and still allows for this possibility.
(It's just that they have renamed the B4 as B3)

* (after only 4 tournaments they COULD have C1 events; after only 11 tournaments - without evening 'fudging' and declaring the 3rd place ties - they could have C4 events, and after only 16 tournaments - really only 2 years of having only 1 Open event per month - their 17th tournament COULD, I repeat COULD, according to the rules, be a B4 event!)

I think many people are seeing the glass as half-empty here: there absolutely NO reason your local organizers can't schedule, and hold more unclassified events, and/or age restricted events that keep the kids OUT!

Personally, I think the main weakness of the USFA system is that it overly rewards/acknowledges 1 peak performance, as opposed to the Canadian System, which strongly encourages and ackowledges the people who repeat their performance; as without equaling the performance 2-3 times, they are quite likely to be demoted at the end of the season.

Yes, this DOES entail slightly more results be sent it to their national office, but, at least there is no higher math required on site, and hardly any at the Office.

Fence on!

[Chris]

Originally posted by JEC
Most Open competitions require you being 13 or older. Thus, at the mid-range of the Youth categories.

It's unfortunate that the USFA is muddling the definition of the word 'Open' in the Operations Manual, and the Athlete Programs Handbook.

Any age restriction MUST still be specified.

Regarding ratings, when 80 or so Y10 fencers are competing there is a need for some form of ranking to make pools of somewhat equal value....

Yes, this is true.

[Mulligan]

Geeze...does anyone else's brain hurt now?

[edew]

USFA uses "Div I" or "Div II" or "Div III" or "Div IA" to describe what some people here call "open" events. The Div X events all have minimal age requirements. Local events are open and do not have minimal or maximal age restrictions. However, many coaches do not let their 10-year old fence in such events.

Again, the reason why people should not complain about classifications for 10-year olds is because the classifications should only be used as a way to help initially seed the tournament. Don't make more out of the classification other than that.

If people want to boast of their successes, feel free to claim that they won X number of events, or took second in Y number of events. That's a better measure of success.

[JEC]

Originally posted by edew
On the other hand, we have plenty of 10-12 years old fencers who have classifications up to C's and they do do well against adults who have D's and E's. The classifications are not so unrealistic as one might think.

Agree, but the 10-12 years old fencers that you are talking about got their Cs in Y12 or Y14 events, and they are Y12 fencers (not longer Y10 fencers) Y10 nationals events are D1. The first C2 event was Saratoga Springs. I challenge you to show me more than 6 North CA kids that currently are Y12 fencers with C's, or more than one Y10 who has a C rating. Obviously, because their lower reach, they would do better in ROW weapons.

[darius]

...and who really cares, anyway?

A fencer in my pool is a fencer in my pool. I'm going to attempt to beat them 5-0, whether they're 10, 18, or 80, and whether they're unrated or at the top of the FIE points list.

It's evident that ratings are an imperfect indicator of skill, so assigning any sort of value to them other than a convenience for tournament organizers is silly.

darius

[The0ne]

Rating below a C mean little. . . Many E's can beat D's and so forth.
To get your E nowerdays (sp) all you to know is parry 4, parry 6, advance, reatreat, and lung, and be aggressive.
To get a D, just change both parries to Counter 6 and learn how to flick.
unfortunate, but true thanks to those rating-awarding U tournaments, which have devalued ratings soo much!

-The0ne