German System for Teaching Epee

[Harold Buck]

Can anyone give me a brief (or longer!) explanation of the German system
for teaching epee?

I coach a high school fencing team in the winter and I'm looking to
change the way I coach the epee team, considering what we're doing now
isn't working so well.

Thanks!

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Harold,
Caveats: My comments are based on a brief - approx 1 year - experience
working at Golden Gate Fencing Center under the direction of
Paul Soter. They state that they use the german system. As I have
no other referents I accepted their categorization. Secondly my
understanding is that there is a german system of teaching and
a german style of epee fencing.
The system of teaching as I observed it (and I would caution that
I do not feel competent to separate out what is the german system
and what was invented by GGFC) was composed of
a. a warm up period of game playing - often a variant of tag or
throwing a sponge ball.
or alternatively doing a set of exercises where the student
moves from station to station performing a different exercise
at each station. An example might be a station which had a
jump rope or other implement and the student would jump rope
some number of times. Given the number of stations equal the
number of students everyone was doing something all the time.
b. classroom foot work: much like the footwork I've seen at all
salles, GGFC threw in one twist whereby an advanced student was
often assigned to lead this with a set of drills they decided.
The leader was usually one of the "A"s, Eric Hansen, Phil Gerring
Bob Cotter, etc.
c. blade drills: this is a little more tricky to explain as they
apparently brought into play the german style which - as was
explained to me by father Rick himself educated in germany -
is with the blade higher than french or italian styles and
more emphasis on clearing the line with a beat. The drills
were carried out in a manner similar to what I've seen at
salles that were described as french or russian influenced
with two lines of students switching off the lead.

As a student I wasn't actually cognizant of the distinctions between
the various national systems being applied. I did note however there
was a set of note cards from which Soter would pick and choose as to
which exercises, or drills were to be performed that night and I
suspect that set of note cards is what would interest you. Sorry but
no, I didn't obtain a copy. My apologies if I've missed some critical
points of the german system. I was there learning fencing not how
to teach fencing.

J.

Harold Buck wrote:
> Can anyone give me a brief (or longer!) explanation of the German system
> for teaching epee?
>
> I coach a high school fencing team in the winter and I'm looking to
> change the way I coach the epee team, considering what we're doing now
> isn't working so well.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Harold Buck
>
>
> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:30:40 GMT
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote:
>Can anyone give me a brief (or longer!) explanation of the German system
>for teaching epee?
>
>I coach a high school fencing team in the winter and I'm looking to
>change the way I coach the epee team, considering what we're doing now
>isn't working so well.
>

What are you doing now, and what makes you think it's not working?

Zebee

[Siobhs]

Hi Harold,
It has been said that Emil Beck of Tauberbischofsheim was pretty much
responsible for the success of German épée in the 80s and onward.
His book, "Fechttraining", is available at amazon.de, but I don't know
if there's an English language edition.
Hope this will be some help anyway!
Siobhán.


Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<no_one_knows-7EFB20.17300304032003@netnews.attbi.com>...
> Can anyone give me a brief (or longer!) explanation of the German system
> for teaching epee?
>
> I coach a high school fencing team in the winter and I'm looking to
> change the way I coach the epee team, considering what we're doing now
> isn't working so well.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --Harold Buck

[Harold Buck]

In article <slrnb6beqd.1uf.zebee@zipperii.zip.com.au>,
zebee@zip.com.au (Zebee Johnstone) wrote:

> In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 04 Mar 2003 23:30:40 GMT
> Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote:
> >Can anyone give me a brief (or longer!) explanation of the German system
> >for teaching epee?
> >
> >I coach a high school fencing team in the winter and I'm looking to
> >change the way I coach the epee team, considering what we're doing now
> >isn't working so well.
> >
>
> What are you doing now, and what makes you think it's not working?
>


Well, I used to focus on parry-riposte (with opposition) and attack with
opposition, and had some fencers have relatively good results (most of
my kids only fence during the high school season, and they have to
compete against a lot of kids who fence year-round; that's why I say
"relatively").

Recently, I've tried emphasizing attacks to the hand with a subsequent
remise and counterattacks to the arm (both with extension and as a
cave'). Of course, I still teach parry-riposte and attack with
opposition, but with less emphasis.

The results of the team this year were dreadful. In the most dramatic
falloff, a second-year fencer who'd won 50% of his bouts his first year
dropped to 25% this year.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Harold Buck]

In article <3E65B761.9070606@alamedanet.net>,
Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote:

> c. blade drills: this is a little more tricky to explain as they
> apparently brought into play the german style which - as was
> explained to me by father Rick himself educated in germany -
> is with the blade higher than french or italian styles and
> more emphasis on clearing the line with a beat. The drills
> were carried out in a manner similar to what I've seen at
> salles that were described as french or russian influenced
> with two lines of students switching off the lead.


Hhhmmm. What I'd heard was that the German system emphasized sequential
drills rather than choice drills, and that the model was for the coach
to drill the best students, then have the best students drill the
second-tier students, and so on, so everyone got lots of bladework and
lots of repetition.

When I say sequential drills, I mean that the student knows the order of
the actions and the coach's response ahead of time, and the student
works through the sequence repeatedly. So--I'm guessing a bit here--it
might go something like:

Student follows coach's movement.

1. Coach opens hand, student does short lunge to hand, remise to body
with long lunge.

2. Coach opens hand, student does short lunge to hand, opposition 6
remise to body with long lunge.

3. Coach opens hand, student does short lunge to hand, opposition 4
remise to body with long lunge.

4-6. Then repeat 1-3 with the added action of coach retreating after the
remise so the student has to remise a second time by redoubling the
lunge.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Achilleus]

The system is sequential, a break down of level one goes like so:

one lesson, one line, say 4

part 1:

beat 4, hit to the top of the hand
follow with parry riposte to the body, called a saftey, usually 8.

do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.

Part 2:
beat 4 hit top of the hand, remise under
followed by safety to the body (usually 6 transport 7)

do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.


Part 3:

beat 4 hit hand, remise knee
followed by sfaety to the body (usually 6 transport 1)

do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.

Part 4:

beat 4 hit hand, remise foot
followed by saftey (usually 6)

do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.

The lessons are usally high speed lessons with the coach moving the
student around before giving the cue. Very combat oriented. The
lines for the initial action change, the lines for the safetys change,
even the on guard can change.

Level 2 of the system calls for beat hit beat hit, then proceed with
the remises and safetys.

Level 3 and 4 involve flicks.

hope that helps...




Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<no_one_knows-0C9078.21184906032003@netnews.attbi.com>...
> In article <3E65B761.9070606@alamedanet.net>,
> Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote:
>
> > c. blade drills: this is a little more tricky to explain as they
> > apparently brought into play the german style which - as was
> > explained to me by father Rick himself educated in germany -
> > is with the blade higher than french or italian styles and
> > more emphasis on clearing the line with a beat. The drills
> > were carried out in a manner similar to what I've seen at
> > salles that were described as french or russian influenced
> > with two lines of students switching off the lead.
>
>
> Hhhmmm. What I'd heard was that the German system emphasized sequential
> drills rather than choice drills, and that the model was for the coach
> to drill the best students, then have the best students drill the
> second-tier students, and so on, so everyone got lots of bladework and
> lots of repetition.
>
> When I say sequential drills, I mean that the student knows the order of
> the actions and the coach's response ahead of time, and the student
> works through the sequence repeatedly. So--I'm guessing a bit here--it
> might go something like:
>
> Student follows coach's movement.
>
> 1. Coach opens hand, student does short lunge to hand, remise to body
> with long lunge.
>
> 2. Coach opens hand, student does short lunge to hand, opposition 6
> remise to body with long lunge.
>
> 3. Coach opens hand, student does short lunge to hand, opposition 4
> remise to body with long lunge.
>
> 4-6. Then repeat 1-3 with the added action of coach retreating after the
> remise so the student has to remise a second time by redoubling the
> lunge.
>
> --Harold Buck
>
>
> "I used to rock and roll all night,
> and party every day.
> Then it was every other day. . . ."
> -Homer J. Simpson

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Is there a printed/online source for these drills?
j.

Achilleus wrote:
> The system is sequential, a break down of level one goes like so:
>
> one lesson, one line, say 4
>
> part 1:
>
> beat 4, hit to the top of the hand
> follow with parry riposte to the body, called a saftey, usually 8.
>
> do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
> lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.
>
> Part 2:
> beat 4 hit top of the hand, remise under
> followed by safety to the body (usually 6 transport 7)
>
> do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
> lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.
>
>
> Part 3:
>
> beat 4 hit hand, remise knee
> followed by sfaety to the body (usually 6 transport 1)
>
> do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
> lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.
>
> Part 4:
>
> beat 4 hit hand, remise foot
> followed by saftey (usually 6)
>
> do this action with standing, advance, lunge, advance lunge, jump
> lunge, retreat, retreat lunge, fleche.
>
> The lessons are usally high speed lessons with the coach moving the
> student around before giving the cue. Very combat oriented. The
> lines for the initial action change, the lines for the safetys change,
> even the on guard can change.
>
> Level 2 of the system calls for beat hit beat hit, then proceed with
> the remises and safetys.
>
> Level 3 and 4 involve flicks.
>
> hope that helps...
>