electric lights rules

[Laura Callaghan]

This may be a very stupid question, but what are the rules on awarding
points in foil as regards the time difference between the lights?

For example,
'Allez' is called. Fencer A extends arm towards Fencer B, thus asserting
right of way. Fencer B moves towards Fencer A, ignores Fencer A's point in
line and hits. Fencer B's light comes up before Fencer A's light, but Fencer
B has essentially impaled himself on Fencer A's blade without attempting to
gain right of way. The point was awarded to Fencer B on the grounds that his
light came up significantly before fencer A's light.

Any comments? Any info on the rules about the timing of the lights would be
greatly appreciated.

Laura Callaghan

[Mark C. Orton]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:29:31 -0000, "Laura Callaghan" <lmc9@ukc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> This may be a very stupid question, but what are the rules on awarding
> points in foil as regards the time difference between the lights?
>
> For example,
> 'Allez' is called. Fencer A extends arm towards Fencer B, thus asserting
> right of way. Fencer B moves towards Fencer A, ignores Fencer A's point in
> line and hits. Fencer B's light comes up before Fencer A's light, but Fencer
> B has essentially impaled himself on Fencer A's blade without attempting to
> gain right of way. The point was awarded to Fencer B on the grounds that his
> light came up significantly before fencer A's light.
>
> Any comments? Any info on the rules about the timing of the lights would be
> greatly appreciated.

The relevant rules are:

t.6 Fencing time is the time required to perform one simple action.

t.60 ... Therefore, when there is not a period of fencing time
between the touches: ... only the fencer who attacks is counted as
touched ... if the fencer initiates his attack when the opponent has
point in line (c.f. t.10) without deflecting the opponent's weapon.



Now when you say B's light came on "significantly before" A's, perhaps
that's an indication that it was a full period of fencing time, as
defined above. If that's the case, then I'd say the referee was
correct but did a poor job of explaining it.

This could happen, for instance, if A's point in line was flat, and he
tried again and hit with a remise. Your description suggests you
didn't see it that way, but it seems the referee did.

-Mark-

[Dieter Schlaepfer]

According to the rules, the director is supposed to rule right-of-way
regardless of the order of the lights. The foil and saber lockout times
limit the maximum separation time between the lights. The current
FIE-specified lockout times are as follows:

Foil (club): 750 msec (3/4 sec)
Foil (FIE) : 350 msec
Saber: 350 msec
Epee: 40-50 msec (1/20 to 1/25 sec)

Dieter

-----------------
Dieter Schlaepfer
Eigertek

[Harold Buck]

In article <3e5c3b2c.39574107@news.erols.com>,
ortonmc+rsf@erols.com (Mark C. Orton) wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 15:29:31 -0000, "Laura Callaghan" <lmc9@ukc.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > This may be a very stupid question, but what are the rules on awarding
> > points in foil as regards the time difference between the lights?
> >
> > For example,
> > 'Allez' is called. Fencer A extends arm towards Fencer B, thus asserting
> > right of way. Fencer B moves towards Fencer A, ignores Fencer A's point in
> > line and hits. Fencer B's light comes up before Fencer A's light, but Fencer
> > B has essentially impaled himself on Fencer A's blade without attempting to
> > gain right of way. The point was awarded to Fencer B on the grounds that his
> > light came up significantly before fencer A's light.
> >
> > Any comments? Any info on the rules about the timing of the lights would be
> > greatly appreciated.
>
> The relevant rules are:
>

Also relevant in general, but not to this specific situation, is the
lockout on the box. A certain period of time after the first light goes
on, the box will no longer register a touch.

What are the lockout times, anyway. I know epee is (used to be?) 1/25th
of a second. What is it for saber and foil?


--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Dieter Schlaepfer]

What I meant to say was that the foil and saber lockout times act as an
automatic limit to very slow attacks (permitting an attack in
preparation based on time). The epee lockout time determines the outer
limit to what is a simultaneous (double) touch.


Dieter Schlaepfer wrote:
>
> According to the rules, the director is supposed to rule right-of-way
> regardless of the order of the lights. The foil and saber lockout times
> limit the maximum separation time between the lights. The current
> FIE-specified lockout times are as follows:
>
> Foil (club): 750 msec (3/4 sec)
> Foil (FIE) : 350 msec
> Saber: 350 msec
> Epee: 40-50 msec (1/20 to 1/25 sec)
>
> Dieter
>
> -----------------
> Dieter Schlaepfer
> Eigertek
>
>
>
>

[Harold Buck]

In article <3E5C7090.5010909@sonic.nospam.net>,
Dieter Schlaepfer <schlae@sonic.nospam.net> wrote:

>
> According to the rules, the director is supposed to rule right-of-way
> regardless of the order of the lights. The foil and saber lockout times
> limit the maximum separation time between the lights. The current
> FIE-specified lockout times are as follows:
>

Well, yeah, but the order of the lights is often *extremely* helpful in
sorting out whose touch it is when you're in an
attack-riposte-remise-remise-remise-remise situation. If one light is on
significantly before the other, you can generally judge that person's
remise to be before the other's if they are both fencing in the same
tempo.

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Mark C. Orton wrote:

<snip>

>The relevant rules are:
>
>t.6 Fencing time is the time required to perform one simple action.
>
>
>
Is that one blade action or one foot action? I've never really been
clear on that.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Mark C. Orton]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:30:30 -0500, Amy & Joseph Kormann
<ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote:

> Mark C. Orton wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >The relevant rules are:
> >
> >t.6 Fencing time is the time required to perform one simple action.
> >
> >
> >
> Is that one blade action or one foot action?

Yes.

If you lunge, fall short, and reprise without taking your blade out of
line or doing anything else with it, that's two simple actions.

If you lunge with a one-two, that's two simple actions.

-Mark-

[Carol]

Not being there to personally watch this exchange, I can only offer my comments
as to the probable scenarios:

In this situation, if fencers B's light came on significantly before fencer A's
light, the probable causes are:
1) As fencer A was moving forward, their arm was not fully extended, so they
actually did not have a point in line; if they did, then fencer A's light would
have come on first.
2) Fencer A put out a point-in-line after fencer B had already started an
attack -- the point-in-line was late.
3) Fencer A was holding a point in line too high and fencer B attacked (in
which in the lunge, fencer B's target is lower than the point-in-line) and
then fencer A had to abandon their point-in-line in order to hit. Abandoning a
point in line results in a loss of priority, and the fact that fencer A's light
came on significantly after fencer B's light indicates that fencer A hit fencer
B on the replacement of the point -- the second fencing action after their
first had failed.

If fencer A had a correct and proper point-in-line, fencer A's light would have
come on first, not significantly after fencer B's.

Fencer A needs to work more on point control to use a point-in-line correctly.

Laura Callaghan wrote:

> This may be a very stupid question, but what are the rules on awarding
> points in foil as regards the time difference between the lights?
>
> For example,
> 'Allez' is called. Fencer A extends arm towards Fencer B, thus asserting
> right of way. Fencer B moves towards Fencer A, ignores Fencer A's point in
> line and hits. Fencer B's light comes up before Fencer A's light, but Fencer
> B has essentially impaled himself on Fencer A's blade without attempting to
> gain right of way. The point was awarded to Fencer B on the grounds that his
> light came up significantly before fencer A's light.
>
> Any comments? Any info on the rules about the timing of the lights would be
> greatly appreciated.
>
> Laura Callaghan