Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil

Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
soon).

My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
a french grip also.

Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
competition?

Thanks,

-Raka

Raka wrote:
> Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> french/pistol alternation?

If you're working on developing finger control (rather than the
"clenched fist of death"), you could do this with either style of grip;
it simply requires a bit of mental concentration on using the desired
technique. In fact, I'd think it would be more beneficial to stay with a
pistol grip if that's what you ulimately want to use, since you'll avoid
the difficult process of transferring techniques learned on the french
grip to the pistol grip, and not sliding back into old bad habits.

It's kinda' like learning languages: if you want to improve your
English, concentrate on English rather than starting a whole new
language like Latin. I seem to recall that studies revealed the
transference wasn't nearly as great as the Latin teachers would've had
you believe, and the time would have been better spent on English if the
desired goal was improved competency in English. Now, if you just want
to learn Latin, that's a whole 'nuther story. Same if you want to
develop facility with the French grip for its own sake.

As always, I'm no expert / your mileage may vary / consult your coach.


--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

"Raka" <storage_space@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.c om...
> Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
> easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably
too
> soon).
>
> My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips
as
> a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
> suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
> lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training
with
> a french grip also.
>
> Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from
pistol
> grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
> competition?

If you're having problems with holding your pistol grips too tightly,
having you work with a french grip for a while seems a completely
reasonable approach to me. You would still need to explicitly remind
youself, when switching back from french to pistol, that you must hold
more lightly, more like a french. You might want to try a variety of
different handles -- and different sizes of handles -- to find one
that encourages you to hold it properly. I find the russian handle to
be the most "french-like" of the common pistol grips.

For that matter, I don't agree that it would be "suicide" to compete
with a french grip. Plenty of epee fencers do it, and though I assume
you're a foilist, it's still possible to fence foil competitively with
a french handle. With the french, actions in which you attempt to
control your opponent's weapon must be more precise and correctly
executed. And it's rather easier to have the weapon knocked out of
your hand by your opponent's forceful beat. However, my experience
has been that such beats rarely result in a touch for the opponent. I
don't know of any actions that can be done with either a french or a
pistol grip that can't be done with the other type of handle. Some
are easier with a pistol, some with a french, but they can be done
either way.

I use a pistol grip in competition and a french for teaching. I used
a french for competition for the first six years I fenced. Then a
hand injury left me unable to hold on to a french handle for about a
year, so I switched to a pistol so that I could continue fencing. I
never saw any special need to go back, but it's not because I don't
think it could be done.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

The pistol grip makes it far easier to flick. Now, its true that
flicking is unnecessary. However, the semi-flick is ubiquitous, and
judging from some recent NACs, very necessary in high level foil
competition.

The problem is that the best foilists are capable of closing the
distance, ducking at the last second, or spinning (turning so that
their chest is no longer visible just before you land), so quickly
that even with right of way, you will often find your point attack
landing flat. One way to adjust for this, is to add a little flick to
the end of the point attack. Now, if they duck with your point
hovering 3 inches above their head, you can still win the point.

Certainly the lack of a flick can be overcome by ungodly distance and
timing, but is becoming more and more difficult to compensate.

In article <Xns932B6A2FA7Djtwernbold@24.94.165.88>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>It's kinda' like learning languages: if you want to improve your
>English, concentrate on English rather than starting a whole new
>language like Latin. I seem to recall that studies revealed the
>transference wasn't nearly as great as the Latin teachers would've had
>you believe, and the time would have been better spent on English if the
>desired goal was improved competency in English. Now, if you just want
>to learn Latin, that's a whole 'nuther story. Same if you want to
>develop facility with the French grip for its own sake.

Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English skills
taking German...

In article <a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.com >,
storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka) writes:

>Subject: Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil
>From: storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka)
>Date: 23 Feb 2003 00:47:43 -0800
>
>Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
>easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
>soon).

I am not sure how common it really is these days to start on french;
The club I currently attend provides about a 50/50 mix for the classes
(It's certainly a thing that varies highlyfrom area to area)
Even when I started, back in the 70's, well, I guess it was more common, but I
can't say most...
I certainly didn't use french more than a couple time the first year or so I
fenced; and then, once I had a better sense of distance (relatively speaking)
and motion, I did practice with a french quite a bit for several years, and it
DID effect the way I manipulated the belgian or visconti handle.

>My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
>a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
>suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
>lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
>a french grip also.

There's certainly some benefits to practicing with french: you really learn how
to keep distance, allowing you to engage on the strong of your blade, and
orient the hand to the strong plane (direction), thus allowoing the movements
to be smaller, and presumably timed better.

>Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
>french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
>grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
>competition?

Actually, I think the french handle sees more action on epee these days, but
there is an older man who attends our club, who fences foil exclusively with a
french, and he's quite good: won the '92 Veteran's Foil, and he can really whip
it around in a couple of the lines, but I am inclined to think that it's really
his footwork that gives me more trouble: I have (over the years) learned some
finesse with the blade, even though I am holding an orthotic.

Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I don't
know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
was anyways.

With the italian grip your fingers are enclosed in those metal rings
and you're using your finger tips along the ricasso to manouvre the
point and the strap makes it difficult if not impossible to propell it
forward and use the pommel, a la the french grip where one can change
from holding at the bell guard to pommel and back again at ease.


Phillip J. Inoy

clhagenmn@aol.com (CLHagenMN) wrote in message news:<20030224225436.19274.00000511@mb-fd.aol.com>...
> In article <a21b4719.0302230047.67fcc87a@posting.google.com >,
> storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka) writes:
>
> >Subject: Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil
> >From: storage_space@hotmail.com (Raka)
> >Date: 23 Feb 2003 00:47:43 -0800
> >
> >Like most fencers, I began foil with a french grip, and converted
> >easily to a pistol grip after about 18 months of fencing (probably too
> >soon).
>
> I am not sure how common it really is these days to start on french;
> The club I currently attend provides about a 50/50 mix for the classes
> (It's certainly a thing that varies highlyfrom area to area)
> Even when I started, back in the 70's, well, I guess it was more common, but I
> can't say most...
> I certainly didn't use french more than a couple time the first year or so I
> fenced; and then, once I had a better sense of distance (relatively speaking)
> and motion, I did practice with a french quite a bit for several years, and it
> DID effect the way I manipulated the belgian or visconti handle.
>
> >My coach has tried unsuccessfully to wean me back onto french grips as
> >a way of refining my technique, though has admitted it would be
> >suicide for me to compete using french. At this stage I am taking
> >lessons using french grip, and thinking of occasionally training with
> >a french grip also.
>
> There's certainly some benefits to practicing with french: you really learn how
> to keep distance, allowing you to engage on the strong of your blade, and
> orient the hand to the strong plane (direction), thus allowoing the movements
> to be smaller, and presumably timed better.
>
> >Does anybody have any opinions on this sort of training, with
> >french/pistol alternation? Is there anyone who has changed from pistol
> >grip to/back to french grip in foil and has found this successful in
> >competition?
>
> Actually, I think the french handle sees more action on epee these days, but
> there is an older man who attends our club, who fences foil exclusively with a
> french, and he's quite good: won the '92 Veteran's Foil, and he can really whip
> it around in a couple of the lines, but I am inclined to think that it's really
> his footwork that gives me more trouble: I have (over the years) learned some
> finesse with the blade, even though I am holding an orthotic.

"Phillip Inoy" <debergerac@ziplip.com> wrote in message
news:97b3a9dd.0302250044.27070fc@posting.google.co m...
> It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
> comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I
don't
> know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
> was anyways.

The wrist strap is most definitely *not* banned from use with the
Italian handle or pistol grip, or any other grip that fixes your hand
in a single position with your thumb no more than 2cm from the inside
of the guard. It may not, however, be used with a French grip.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

In article <3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com>, Janus <laeticus@attbi.com>
wrote:

> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

But what if you're past your prime?

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 25 Feb 2003 18:02:32 GMT
Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote:
>In article <3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com>, Janus <laeticus@attbi.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
>
>But what if you're past your prime?
>

All the masters appear to agree that you move from there into second.

Second position, second childhood....


Zebee

I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
of prime.

-Dave

Janus wrote:

> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

Parrying 'prime' with a standard belgian or visconte grip puts the prong
at the base of the thumb so it digs into the hand there.

*You* on the other hand use those weird modified russian with the
curling over the thumb prong so it doesn't dig in. With *normal* pistol
grips 'prime' is easier with a french grip

gary hayenga


David Neevel wrote:
> I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
> decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
> more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
> greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
> get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
> manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
> don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
> restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
> I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
> prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
> of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
> of prime.
>
> -Dave
>
> Janus wrote:
>
>
>>Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
>
>

Actually, I gave up on those shortly after you moved to Ann Arbor. I'm
using medium Uhlmann visconti grips, cut off a bit up front, so that the body
of the grip is forward in the fingers and the upper prong is also shifted a
bit forward from the base of the thumb. That and the cant of the tang
mean that there's plenty of latitude to shift the grip around. It also helps
to 'release' the grip a bit more forward in the hand, so that just the last
knuckles of the fingers are around the body of the grip, and the end of the
thumb is
either shifted back away from the guard pad, or else lifted off the grip
entirely,
with the knuckle of the thumb lightly hooked over the upper prong acting as
your
upper manipulator. There are other, more pronouced shifts of the grip in the
hand
you can carry out that simply can't be done with a French grip.
It's this ability to do a partial release and use finger surfaces other
than the classic thumb-and-forefinger to control that makes me find the
visconti much
better for prime-- it allows me to get all manner of angles on both the parry
and
the riposte (quite nice for dealing with rightys who think that by continuing
to charge
in after they're parried they can avoid the riposte).

-Dave

gary hayenga wrote:

> Parrying 'prime' with a standard belgian or visconte grip puts the prong
> at the base of the thumb so it digs into the hand there.
>
> *You* on the other hand use those weird modified russian with the
> curling over the thumb prong so it doesn't dig in. With *normal* pistol
> grips 'prime' is easier with a french grip
>
> gary hayenga
>
> David Neevel wrote:
> > I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
> > decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
> > more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
> > greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
> > get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
> > manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
> > don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
> > restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
> > I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
> > prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
> > of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
> > of prime.
> >
> > -Dave
> >
> > Janus wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.
> >
> >

"Dirk Goldgar" <dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> wrote in message news:<4VK6a.1589$PS5.549087304@news.netcarrier.net >...
> "Phillip Inoy" <debergerac@ziplip.com> wrote in message
> news:97b3a9dd.0302250044.27070fc@posting.google.co m...
> > It'd be kind of cool to see the vintage italian grip make a
> > comeback...with the wrist strap and everything. I love retro. I
> don't
> > know why the wrist strap was banned from use in USFA/FIE. I heard it
> > was anyways.
>
> The wrist strap is most definitely *not* banned from use with the
> Italian handle or pistol grip, or any other grip that fixes your hand
> in a single position with your thumb no more than 2cm from the inside
> of the guard. It may not, however, be used with a French grip.

Thanks so much...you have consistently been a help to those in need of
info or who are misinformed. i'm off to buy a couple of italian
grips!!!

Thanks.

Phillip J. Inoy

CLHagenMN wrote:
> Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English
> skills taking German...

Right, there is definitely some transference, but I believe the argument
is that if you had spent all that time on English rather than German,
your English skills would've increased even more. For example, if
instead of 4 years of German classes one were instead to take 4 years of
additional English classes, there would be a greater total increase in
English skills (although this obviously ignores all the other benefits
of learning a foreign language). And all students are different; some
may find a great deal of benefit in learning something similar but
slightly different (e.g. French grip rather than orthotic). Again, the
language comments are based on studies which I have only half-
remembered, so forgive me if it turns out to be gibberish. :-)


--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

"Lion" <apaul@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b5d27558.0302241016.3bf4f7ec@posting.google.c om...
> The pistol grip makes it far easier to flick. Now, its true that
> flicking is unnecessary. However, the semi-flick is ubiquitous, and
> judging from some recent NACs, very necessary in high level foil
> competition.
>
> The problem is that the best foilists are capable of closing the
> distance, ducking at the last second, or spinning (turning so that
> their chest is no longer visible just before you land), so quickly
> that even with right of way, you will often find your point attack
> landing flat. One way to adjust for this, is to add a little flick
to
> the end of the point attack. Now, if they duck with your point
> hovering 3 inches above their head, you can still win the point.
>
> Certainly the lack of a flick can be overcome by ungodly distance
and
> timing, but is becoming more and more difficult to compensate.

It's no great trick to flick with the French handle, though you do it
slightly differently. I agree that it's easier to make a "big flick"
with a pistol grip, but I don't think the type of handle makes much
difference to one's ability to do the "semi-flick" you describe. I'd
guess that move has probably been around as long as foil fencing, it's
so natural.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

"Janus" <laeticus@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3E5AFE37.207655D7@attbi.com...
> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

As is the very deep parry 4 executed with the reverse lunge against a
flèching fencer.

--

Dirk Goldgar

(to reply via e-mail, remove NOSPAM from address)

In article <%357a.1594$Qx6.551579787@news.netcarrier.net>, "Dirk Goldgar"
<dgoldgar@NOalumni.SPAMprinceton.edu> writes:

>
>As is the very deep parry 4 executed with the reverse lunge against a
>flèching fencer.

Again, simple enough with an orthotic handle, if using an open-handed 'grip',
and appropriate hand postion.

In article <Xns932E4461336CDjtwernbold@24.94.165.88>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>
>CLHagenMN wrote:
>> Can't speak too much about latin, but I really solidified my English
>> skills taking German...
>
>Right, there is definitely some transference, but I believe the argument
>is that if you had spent all that time on English rather than German,
>your English skills would've increased even more. For example, if
>instead of 4 years of German classes one were instead to take 4 years of
>additional English classes, there would be a greater total increase in
>English skills (although this obviously ignores all the other benefits
>of learning a foreign language). And all students are different; some
>may find a great deal of benefit in learning something similar but
>slightly different (e.g. French grip rather than orthotic). Again, the
>language comments are based on studies which I have only half-
>remembered, so forgive me if it turns out to be gibberish. :-)

Sorry, but you are incorrect, sir!

(While I DID continue to take 'English' all through high school - i.e. three
additional years -, over half of it focused on literature, not grammar,
composition, and writing.)

Whe I started studying German, I already had 6 years of english, and thought I
knew enough about it, and found the study and practice of grammar and writing
(for its own sake) a super-big bore! Only because I was interested in German,
(and getting A's in it) was I forced to go back to the rules and concepts of
english grammar, and really learn the fine points of it, to support my
understanding of German grammar, and language, and learn a translation
process.

If I had studied english grammar for a whole additional year, I would have
done some significant damage to my grade point average.