Opinions on the use of the french grip in foil

[CLHagenMN]

In article <3E5C0859.51C2FC4E@execpc.com>, David Neevel <neevel@execpc.com>
writes:

Sorry, Dave, but I must agree with you!
;-)

Please, Janus, explain your thinking.

>I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
>decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
>more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
>greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
>get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
>manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
>don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
>restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
>I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
>prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
>of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
>of prime.
>
> -Dave
>
>Janus wrote:
>
>> Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

[CLHagenMN]

In article <3E5C1628.300@speakeasy.org>, gary hayenga <vandg@speakeasy.org>
writes:

>Parrying 'prime' with a standard belgian or visconte grip puts the prong
>at the base of the thumb so it digs into the hand there.
>
>*You* on the other hand use those weird modified russian with the
>curling over the thumb prong so it doesn't dig in. With *normal* pistol
>grips 'prime' is easier with a french grip
>
>gary hayenga

Dave doesn't expressly say it, but I beleive his statement allows that he, as
well as I, execute the prime with the hand slightly opened, NOT gripping the
grip tightly, (otherwise, the last two finger would not perform manipulation,
but rather, only provide strength, which is not needed, if the blade is
oriented properly, and the hand positioned properly (relative to the attacking
blade, of course.), and distance is appropriate, etc.

Thus, the 'thumb prong' does not 'dig in', uncomfortably.

But I am not trying to put words in his mouth...

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Dirk Goldgar wrote:

>As is the very deep parry 4 executed with the reverse lunge against aflèching fencer.
>
Not to be specific or anything, eh Dirk?


--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Phillip Inoy wrote:

>With the italian grip your fingers are enclosed in those metal rings
>and you're using your finger tips along the ricasso to manouvre the
>point and the strap makes it difficult if not impossible to propell it
>forward and use the pommel, a la the french grip where one can change
>from holding at the bell guard to pommel and back again at ease.
>
>
If that's how you're supposed to hold an Italian, I've been doing it
wrong for awhile... I've held it like a French, fingers on the blade
itself. I've found the direct contact with the metal of my blade somwhat
helpful in 'feeling' my opponent's blade.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Zebee Johnstone]

In rec.sport.fencing on Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:35:43 -0500
Amy & Joseph Kormann <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote:
>Phillip Inoy wrote:
>
>>With the italian grip your fingers are enclosed in those metal rings
>>and you're using your finger tips along the ricasso to manouvre the
>>point and the strap makes it difficult if not impossible to propell it
>>forward and use the pommel, a la the french grip where one can change
>>from holding at the bell guard to pommel and back again at ease.
>>
>>
>If that's how you're supposed to hold an Italian, I've been doing it
>wrong for awhile... I've held it like a French, fingers on the blade
>itself. I've found the direct contact with the metal of my blade somwhat
>helpful in 'feeling' my opponent's blade.
>

I was told to hold it like this:

- grip nestled in the groove between thumb and palm proper
- thumb on ricasso
- forefinger under thumb, that is the blade rests on the 2nd joint of
the forefinger, the joint after the nail. Although having small
hands, it tends to rest on the first joint, the end one.
- middle finger curled around the crossbar and just about touching the
thumb and grip.
- other fingers curled aroudn the grip so they just touch it with the
finger pads.

http://www.slu.edu/organizations/tfs/Iprimer.html has a picture.

Zebee

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>http://www.slu.edu/organizations/tfs/Iprimer.html has a picture.
>
>Zebee
>
>

Picture isn't available. I think I got the idea though.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[Amy & Joseph Kormann]

Zebee Johnstone wrote:

>I was told to hold it like this:
>
>- grip nestled in the groove between thumb and palm proper
>- thumb on ricasso
>- forefinger under thumb, that is the blade rests on the 2nd joint of
> the forefinger, the joint after the nail. Although having small
>hands, it tends to rest on the first joint, the end one.
>- middle finger curled around the crossbar and just about touching the
> thumb and grip.
>- other fingers curled aroudn the grip so they just touch it with the
> finger pads.
>
>http://www.slu.edu/organizations/tfs/Iprimer.html has a picture.
>
>Zebee
>
>

A good set of pictures are in "The Sciene of Fencing" W. Gaugler, pp
5-7. He also describes how to secure the blade with a wrist strap.

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann

[John Twernbold]

CLHagenMN wrote:
>> And all students are different; some may find a great deal of benefit
>> in learning something similar but slightly different (e.g. French
>> grip rather than orthotic). [...]
>
> Sorry, but you are incorrect, sir! [...] I already had 6 years of
> english, and thought I knew enough about it, and found the study and
> practice of grammar and writing (for its own sake) a super-big bore!
> Only because I was interested in German, (and getting A's in it) was I
> forced to go back to the rules and concepts of english grammar

Yes, like I said: all students are different. In your case, a change of
language was what it took to spark an interest. Similarly, it can also
work in the opposite manner: a student who does *not* want to use a
French grip may find little improvement if forced to do so.

I think this is going a bit off-topic; if you're getting hung up on the
language analogy, just ignore it. I was merely pointing out that skill
transference usually isn't 100%, and it may take extra time and effort
to apply the concepts learned when one returns to the original grip.

--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com

[Carol]

It is easier to take prime with a french grip because the users of a
french grip do not hold the weapon with the overly tight grip that most
fencers with a pistol grip tend to do so. Users of a french grip hold it
properly with the thumb and forefinger, only using the other fingers as
aids when necessary. So, that when taking prime, the users of the french
grip release all of the aid fingers, for they are not necessary in this
position. The pommel on the french grip in this position is totally
removed from the equation. The need for the pommel next to the wrist in
other positions is the indicator that your arm is properly protected, as
well as aiding in strength in its use, hence, which is why many people
improperly trained in the use of a french grip have a problem retaining the
blade on a hard beat -- they aren't holding it correctly to begin with.

David Neevel wrote:

> I'd be interested in seeing your logic for this. Between the fact that a
> decently canted orthopedic grip places the wrist in a
> more neutral position when in a normal en-garde (and thus leaves a
> greater range for the flexion of the wrist needed to
> get into prime), the fact that one can use the pinky and ring finger to
> manipulate and retain the grip while in prime, and the fact that you
> don't have the long pommel to worry about positioning just-so (and
> restricting exactly how and where you can turn the hand while in prime),
> I find that an orthopedic grip makes it easier to execute an effective
> prime, and allows you to select from a wider variety
> of ripostes. This is coming from a lefty who often makes extensive use
> of prime.
>
> -Dave
>
> Janus wrote:
>
> > Parry in prime is always easier with french grip than pistol.

[Janus]

Thank you Carol for explaning it so clearly.

Janus

[CLHagenMN]

In article <Xns932FC17872474jtwernbold@24.94.165.88>, John Twernbold
<jtwernbold@remove-this.yahoo.com> writes:

>Yes, like I said: all students are different. In your case, a change of
>language was what it took to spark an interest. Similarly, it can also
>work in the opposite manner: a student who does *not* want to use a
>French grip may find little improvement if forced to do so.
>
>I think this is going a bit off-topic; if you're getting hung up on the
>language analogy, just ignore it. I was merely pointing out that skill
>transference usually isn't 100%, and it may take extra time and effort
>to apply the concepts learned when one returns to the original grip.

OK! OK! I Surrender - I took you a little too literally...

(Hey, that's vodka, not water! Don't throw it on the fire!!!)
;-(

[John Twernbold]

CLHagenMN wrote:
> OK! OK! I Surrender - I took you a little too literally...
>
> (Hey, that's vodka, not water! Don't throw it on the fire!!!)
> ;-(

LOL! Hey, I always enjoy a good debate. Now let's pass that vodka around...
:-)


--
John Twernbold
jtwernbold (at) yahoo.com