Re: How to bend a French Grip (and not break it)

[Brian Hiles]

Nicholas Kennedy <kennen1079@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ... I just purchased 3 new
> weapons and I do not want to risk breaking them if I am going to bend them.

To actually answer his question...

It is not only common, but preferred to bend the tang for the use
of a French grip. Of course, I discourage extremes in this -- and
this is what I discern from his story -- for the dual reasons of
retaining the only strength of the tradition French grip (and school
of fencing) being control of the weapon, and the fact that there
is less change of being the tang!

First of all, do not try to bend the tang at the transition from
forte to tang; the stress-riser of the machined area often will
incur breakage. The correct place to bend it is just aft of the
transition of the square to round tang.

Secondly, use a blowtorch to warm the metal before bending; I assume
that you are using a standard, non-maraging blade -- these react
differently to heat and bending forces. No, I do NOT mean heating
it up to red-hot or anything near the eutectic temperature of LAHC
(Low-Alloy High Carbon) steel which is used in many blades, which
would compromise its heat treatment. A temperature of 250 to 300
degrees is more than sufficient, and will protect the metal (assuming
no flaws) from breaking when the radius of bend is gentle. The
temperature generated by vigorously moving the blade between a
terry-cloth is sufficient to heat up the heat to beyond 200 degrees,
but you will not be able to do this on the much shorter tang.

A bend of 15-25 degrees downwards and a similar bend leftwards
(assuming right-handedness) is optimal for the French tang -- but
no more.

BTW, I've tried most orthopaedic grips, and have been appalled by
almost all of them -- the Belgian Grip is an utter abomination (but
I _do_ realise that there are several manufacturers haaving subtle
design differences). The American Grip is no better, and the Russian
is hard to retain in the hand with vigorous fencing -- but then so
is the French, which is the only reason I thought to need to switch
when fencing competitively. I currently use the Spanish Traditional,
although I personally feel that the German Grip is technically the
best design for the criterion of finger play.

BTW, I've tried most orthopaedic grips, and have been appalled by
almost all of them -- the Belgian Grip is an abomination (and I
_do_ realise that there are several manufacturers of subtle design
differences). The American Grip is no better, and the Russian is
had to retain in the hand with vigorous fencing -- but then so is
the French, which is the only reason I thought to switch. I currently
use the Spanish Traditional, although I feel that the German Grip
is technically the best for the criterion of finger play. Don't even
get me started about the nonsense and delusions prolmugated by armourers
concerning the legality of the Spanish Traditional...

I am so fed up with the style of fencing that an unpommelled
orthopaedic grip by necessity devolves into, and the concurrent
laziness of referees who show no evidence that they've even bothered
to read the rules, and are consequently inurred to this style of
fencing (point threatening the floor one-half the time, the referee's
nose the other half), that I have "put my money where my mouth is"
and am nearly done on a design for a pommelled orthopaedic grip that
I feel addresses the relative advantages and disadvantages of both
the French and orthopaedic grips.
Time will tell...

=Brian

[Jonathan Jefferies]

Brian Hiles wrote:
>>
> First of all, do not try to bend the tang at the transition from
> forte to tang; the stress-riser of the machined area often will
> incur breakage. The correct place to bend it is just aft of the
> transition of the square to round tang.

While there may be some value in this approach I've never seen
an armorer or vendor do other than apply a the handle hole in a
crescent wrench at the transition from forte to tang. That said
I did inherit a blade which had had the tang broken off at this
point - I cut the tang and 1/4 inches of the blade off a broken
weapon and welded it on and it's served admirably for working
with the dummy.

>
> Secondly, use a blowtorch to warm the metal before bending; I assume
> that you are using a standard, non-maraging blade -- these react
> differently to heat and bending forces. No, I do NOT mean heating
> it up to red-hot or anything near t

I am quite curious about this as I indicated earlier I've never
seen anyone go to this much trouble when putting the desired bend
in a blade's tang. What I've witnessed frequently and what I do when I
setup my own blades is to take a large crescent wrench and put the
hole in the handle over the tang - blade mounted in a vise - and
then bend the tang albeit slowly.

Does anyone else go to the trouble of heating the tang? Not to
imply that this is wrong or bad practice.


> I am so fed ... that I have "put my money where my mouth is"
> and am nearly done on a design for a pommelled orthopaedic grip that
> I feel addresses the relative advantages and disadvantages of both
> the French and orthopaedic grips.
> Time will tell...

As a part of your effort I would suggest inquiring about what is
legal in grips. In epee most of the fencers I've met who use the
french grip do so that they can "POMMEL" it, i.e. slide it forward
until the pommel is in the palm of the hand thus giving them a
couple of inches of advantage in the extension. I believe this is
illegal for orthopedic grips into which category a hybrid grip
would probably be placed. So my understanding is that your
design must be such that a fencer cannot pommel it.

Luck
J.

[David Neevel]

The tangs of blades are generally annealed so that they are readily bent.
Lammet blades from the early-to-mid 90s sometimes had brittle tangs that
were
prone to snapping when bent, but otherwise breakage at the tang is of
little concern for foil and epee blades, and I've never known any other
armorers who heat tangs to bend them. Aside from the above mentioned
Lammet blades, I've never had a blade break at the tang while putting a
cant into the tang.

-Dave

Jonathan Jefferies wrote:

> Brian Hiles wrote:
> >>
> > First of all, do not try to bend the tang at the transition from
> > forte to tang; the stress-riser of the machined area often will
> > incur breakage. The correct place to bend it is just aft of the
> > transition of the square to round tang.
>
> While there may be some value in this approach I've never seen
> an armorer or vendor do other than apply a the handle hole in a
> crescent wrench at the transition from forte to tang. That said
> I did inherit a blade which had had the tang broken off at this
> point - I cut the tang and 1/4 inches of the blade off a broken
> weapon and welded it on and it's served admirably for working
> with the dummy.
>
> >
> > Secondly, use a blowtorch to warm the metal before bending; I assume
> > that you are using a standard, non-maraging blade -- these react
> > differently to heat and bending forces. No, I do NOT mean heating
> > it up to red-hot or anything near t
>
> I am quite curious about this as I indicated earlier I've never
> seen anyone go to this much trouble when putting the desired bend
> in a blade's tang. What I've witnessed frequently and what I do when I
> setup my own blades is to take a large crescent wrench and put the
> hole in the handle over the tang - blade mounted in a vise - and
> then bend the tang albeit slowly.
>
> Does anyone else go to the trouble of heating the tang? Not to
> imply that this is wrong or bad practice.
>
> > I am so fed ... that I have "put my money where my mouth is"
> > and am nearly done on a design for a pommelled orthopaedic grip that
> > I feel addresses the relative advantages and disadvantages of both
> > the French and orthopaedic grips.
> > Time will tell...
>
> As a part of your effort I would suggest inquiring about what is
> legal in grips. In epee most of the fencers I've met who use the
> french grip do so that they can "POMMEL" it, i.e. slide it forward
> until the pommel is in the palm of the hand thus giving them a
> couple of inches of advantage in the extension. I believe this is
> illegal for orthopedic grips into which category a hybrid grip
> would probably be placed. So my understanding is that your
> design must be such that a fencer cannot pommel it.
>
> Luck
> J.

[Brian Hiles]

Jonathan Jefferies <jonathanjefferies@alamedanet.net> wrote:
> Brian Hiles wrote:
>> transition of the square to round tang.
>> [damn! cut-and-paste duplication error!]
>> ...
> While there may be some value in this approach I've never seen
> an armorer or vendor do other than apply a the handle hole in a
> crescent wrench at the transition from forte to tang. That said
> I did inherit a blade which had had the tang broken off at this
> point - I cut the tang and 1/4 inches of the blade off a broken
> weapon and welded it on and it's served admirably for working
> with the dummy.

David Neevel <neevel@execpc.com> wrote:
> The tangs of blades are generally annealed so that they are readily
> bent. Lammet blades from the early-to-mid 90s sometimes had brittle
> tangs that were prone to snapping when bent, but otherwise breakage
> at the tang is of little concern for foil and epee blades, and I've
> never known any other armorers who heat tangs to bend them. Aside
> from the above mentioned Lammet blades, I've never had a blade break
> at the tang while putting a cant into the tang.

Thank you for your responses; it is indeed "overkill" to _necessarily_
heat the tang before applying the bend, but I wanted to be comprehensive
in my offering, but I still do recommend that tangs not be bent at
the guard detente. I am an old enough fencer that I remember well
the hand-made, case-hardened, high-carbon steel blades that were
available 15+ years ago. The strength of these blades were in the
outer case-hardening, and when a flaw developed in this thin veneer,
they would snap spectacularly. On the other hand, the annealed tangs
were _too_ soft, and either didn't take a permanent bend, or developed
a "soft" failure. Thankfully, these days are over with LAHC alloy
blades. You young'uns don't know how good you've got it

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=gr...rQ.com&rnum=43

I use the blowtorch method, however, because with many blades (10
or more), the bother of taking out the equipment, and the 5 seconds
of applying the heat per blade, more than makes up for the 1 in 50
blades that will break, that I will have to buy for the club. This
cannot be any harder than dragging out a welding setup! I've never
heard of such a thing, and the only time I've considering it is
when I broke the tang of a rapier blade in some vigorous choreographed
duelling!

What _really_ takes up some time (and mental energy) is describing
the process of turning 35 inch blades into 30 inch blades by cutting
and forging anew the tip finial...

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...marQ.com#link4

> As a part of your effort I would suggest inquiring about what is
> legal in grips. In epee most of the fencers I've met who use the
> french grip do so that they can "POMMEL" it, i.e. slide it forward
> until the pommel is in the palm of the hand thus giving them a
> couple of inches of advantage in the extension. I believe this is
> illegal for orthopedic grips into which category a hybrid grip
> would probably be placed. So my understanding is that your
> design must be such that a fencer cannot pommel it.

Thank you. I don't think I adequately emphasized the situation of
needing by practical necessity to abandon the Spanish Tradition
grip merely because tournament armourers are arbitrary and ill
informed. I, however, have read the rules -- many, many times (I'm
a qualified referee) and the six subparagraphs of rule m.4 are quite
sufficient to determinately assess legality.

Pommelling is indeed only sanctioned for the French Grip and no
other -- and this grip position cannot be made by "throwing forward"
the foil in a lunge. The contested legality of the Spanish Tradition
is predicated on the supposed ability for the hand to adopt another
position on the grip which places the thumb more than the maximum
two centimeters from the guard. A hypothetical offset, pommelled
grip has _less_ of this concern, being that there is a "cutout"
that fits the palm and fixes the hand.

The pertainent rules are:

Rule m.4 subparagraph 6:

If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a
special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand
on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the
grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the
extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more
than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.

I hate to sound over-dramatic, but if my grip is made illegal by
the USFA or the FIE, the French traditional school of parry-riposte
fencing will be permanently damaged; the problem is not flicks, or
EVEN bad referees, but the physics of leverage -- if athletic, male
fencers cannot appropriately manipulate a point-heavy, unpommelled,
electrical weapon in absence-of-the-blade parry-riposte fencing,
what chance do females or young fencers have? French grips are
simply not practical for fencing against orthopaedic grips, except
via the technique of "threatening the floor half of the time, and
the referee's nose the other half."

=Brian

[David Neevel]

While I agree with you that completely banning pommeled orthopedic grips was not
the course of action I would have taken, it is not the case that armorers who maintain
that the pommeled Spanish grip is illegal are ill informed-- the wording of those rules was specifically
targeted at the Spanish, Gardere, Dos Santos, and other such grips. They are not permitted--
that is the entire intention of the wording in m.4 (since the FIE wrote and owns the rules lock, stock and barrel,
their interpretation of them is the only one that matters). If you were to try to submit a weapon with the
Spanish grip to control at a World Championships, it would be rejected out of hand by the SEMI
officials in charge.

-Dave

Brian Hiles wrote:

>
>
> Thank you. I don't think I adequately emphasized the situation of
> needing by practical necessity to abandon the Spanish Tradition
> grip merely because tournament armourers are arbitrary and ill
> informed. I, however, have read the rules -- many, many times (I'm
> a qualified referee) and the six subparagraphs of rule m.4 are quite
> sufficient to determinately assess legality.
>
> =Brian