Ok We have talked about bad fencing on tv and movies, what are the great one?

Ok we have talked about the bad TV and movies, what are the great fencing
scenes, what movies?

In article <0bOcnXVGB-Ub39SjXTWcpg@accessus.net>,
"C-Sports" <csports@epconline.com> wrote:

> Ok we have talked about the bad TV and movies, what are the great fencing
> scenes, what movies?


Depends what you mean. Realistic to sport fencing: I have no idea if
there are any. Fun to watch: take your pick from "The Princess Bride."

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck <no_one_knows@attbi.com> wrote in
news:no_one_knows-21B9E5.12534511022003@netnews.attbi.com:


> Depends what you mean. Realistic to sport fencing: I have no idea if
> there are any. Fun to watch: take your pick from "The Princess Bride."

Steve Martin's tennis raquet action in "Roxanne".

in "The Mask of Zorro" with Anthony Hopkins and Antonio Banderas, the scenes
where Anthony Hopkins trains Banderas is ok. It looks somewhat similiar to
drilling I've seen done before, and it's a fun sequence to watch.

-it's been a long time since I've watched an old swordfight movie and I know
there are several good ones I haven't gotten around to watching yet, or that
I've only watched once long ago. But...
SUNSHINE
-I agree with "Remise" (B.C. Milligan) that the best representation of
modern sport fencing is the saber fencing in "Sunshine"; it's comprehensive
in that it goes fr the training in the studio to competing in big
tournaments, and culminates in winning the Olympics. Thus (except for the
swastikas in the background at the Olympics) the movie visually captures the
complete fantasy of most of us fencers, especially saber fencers.
-Fencing is treated seriously and respectfully; they don't have any corny
fencing jokes. The fencing action is fast enough to be exciting; any faster
and subtler and it would be too hard to follow. I think it's about as
realistic and positive a representation of modern fencing as you can get in
the movies.
-These are small points, but only things missing are electric fencing and
the other two weapons -- foil and epee. I would like to someday see similar
treatments of foil and epee equal to that shown in "Sunshine."
-(by the way, I don't agree with "Remise" that the rest of the movie is
worth seeing; I didn't care for it and I thought it was too long.)
SCARAMOUCHE
-I agree with ChrisMSD that the final fencing scene in "Scaramouche" is the
best duel; it's the best example of fencing that's only slightly removed
from modern foil fencing. By "only slightly removed" I mean that they are
actually fighting a duel -- they don't have masks and modern fencing
uniforms and they don't limit themselves to a piste area, but rather ramble
all around the place (slashing up the scenery in the process).
-But the jumping up onto railings and the scenery-slashing doesn't
overshadow the fencing, which is technically good enough that you know both
combatants would be able to hold their own in any modern fencing club.
-I think modern movie audiences would think there's not enough acrobatics
and scenery-slashing and too much technical bladework. And they might think
the scene goes on for too long (11 minutes). But us fencers like it because
it is an extended example of actual fencing. In length and excellence, I
don't think there is any better example in film; other fencing scenes may be
as good or better but not longer. In fact, I can't recall any fencing scenes
as long as 11 minutes, probably with good reason -- that has to be the upper
limit of an action scene. Perhaps it is even too long.

STRATEGY
-the "training sequence" in most sports (and martial arts) movies shows the
hero getting in shape. Some movies, like "Scaramouche," show the hero
getting more technically proficient. Few go beyond that into strategy.
-I have a fantasy about a good fencing movie that includes not only getting
in shape and improving technique, but also a realistic, exciting, but
easy-to-follow representation of strategy: the learning process, including
specific observations (of oneself and one's opponents), and tactics and
training to deal with those observations.
-I recall that there are one or two brief mentions of observation and
tactics in "By the Sword," but the fact that I can't recall what they are
tell me that they are not memorable. (And thus not good.)
-better would be, for instance, fencing versions of what Rocky Balboa goes
through in "Rocky II" and "Rocky III."
-In the original movie, "Rocky," there is no reference to technique or
strategy; all he does is get in shape.
-But in "Rocky II," there is technique (Rocky's trainer Mick makes Rocky a
technically better fighter) and strategy -- Mick shows Rocky how to fight
right-handed (he is a natural southpaw). At a crucial moment in the big
fight, Rocky changes leads and is able to momentarily confuse his opponent.
-In "Rocky III," strategy plays a more crucial role: Rocky's new trainer
Apollo Creed shows Rocky that he has been coasting on strength and the
ability to take a punch. Rocky must then learn (or re-learn) how to box.
-Then, in the big fight, after showing he can outbox his opponent, Rocky
momentarily (and against the advice of his corner) abandons this strategy.
-That's good drama as well as a good representation of a component of
strategy: The moment the hero decides to go against the advice of his
coach. In this case, that may be tactically stupid (the strategy was
working; the case can be made that Rocky is just being unnecessarily
"macho") or it may not be so stupid (Rocky does win the fight after all).
But whether it's stupid or not, it shows an independence that is important
not only dramatically (making the movie better) but also with regard to
strategy -- to develop as strategists, we must make more and more of our own
decisions; i.e. our coach won't always be there to tell us what to do.

-I imagine adding something like that to "Scaramouche" or "Sunshine."

-then I imagine a movie with all the characters in Frank Herbert's novel
"Dune" in a fencing tournament -- all their Machiavellian machinations as
applied to second intention (and third and fourth intention). It'd be a
challenge to keep it easy-to-follow.

"C-Sports" <csports@epconline.com> wrote in message news:<0bOcnXVGB-Ub39SjXTWcpg@accessus.net>...
> Ok we have talked about the bad TV and movies, what are the great fencing
> scenes, what movies?

There are precious few representations of modern sport fencing in
films, and none of those is very good. "Sunshine", "By The Sword",
"Pentathlon" and the most recent Bond film are about all that spring
immediately to mind.

If we are talking about the much broader category of film fencing, you
want to look for movies such as the Richard Lester version of "The
Three Musketeers"
( and its companion "The Four Musketeers" ), "Scaramouche", "The
Duellists"
( with realistic-looking swordfighting, if not precisely fencing,
though there's a brief smallsword duel by Harvey Keitel at the
beginning ), and any of the swashbucklers with Basil Rathbone or
Cornel Wilde, both of whom were superb sport fencers in addition to
being actors. John derek was also quite a good fencer, though his film
work is more limited.

Mandy Patinkin, obsessive type that he is, supposedly studied fencing
seriously for two or three months in preparation for "The Princess
Bride"...I'm not sure it showed much, but the clifftop duel is still a
lot of fun to watch.

On 12 Feb 2003 18:06:51 -0800, trebuchet30303@yahoo.com (William
Marshal) wrote:

>"C-Sports" <csports@epconline.com> wrote in message news:<0bOcnXVGB-Ub39SjXTWcpg@accessus.net>...
>> Ok we have talked about the bad TV and movies, what are the great fencing
>> scenes, what movies?
>
>There are precious few representations of modern sport fencing in
>films

I still like The Great Race and Tony Curtis doing a reasonable sabre
job.

David Couper

D G Couper wrote:

> I still like The Great Race and Tony Curtis doing a reasonable sabre
> job.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Several movies have good fencing. Lots of movies
have good saloon brawls. A few movies have great pie fights.

But only The Great Race has it all.

Jay Rudin

alison1daland@aol.com (Alison1daland) wrote in message news:<20030212142808.10249.00000607@mb-fc.aol.com>...
> in "The Mask of Zorro" with Anthony Hopkins and Antonio Banderas, the scenes
> where Anthony Hopkins trains Banderas is ok. It looks somewhat similiar to
> drilling I've seen done before, and it's a fun sequence to watch.

Concerning training, in The Fellowship of the Ring where Boromir (or
Aragorn?) is teaching Merry and Pippin to fence he is calling out
"Two, One, Five" while they do three parries which are, as far as I
can make out, seconde, prime and quinte.

Bye,

Joe

"The Fencing Master." In Spanish with English sub-titles...based on the
novel of the same name by Arturo Perez-Riverte.


"C-Sports" <csports@epconline.com> wrote in message
news:0bOcnXVGB-Ub39SjXTWcpg@accessus.net...
> Ok we have talked about the bad TV and movies, what are the great fencing
> scenes, what movies?
>
>

What about all of the old samurai movies like seven sam, yojimbo, sansuro and
sword of doom,the dueling is much more like a life and death situation

> What about all of the old samurai movies like seven sam, yojimbo, sansuro
and
> sword of doom,the dueling is much more like a life and death situation

Seven Samurai was more about group tactics and screaming wildly [Toshiro
Mifune] and slicing attackers apart.

So basically it was saber.
-Bill

In rec.sport.fencing on 15 Feb 2003 16:42:27 GMT
PAN CYAN <pancyan@aol.com> wrote:
>What about all of the old samurai movies like seven sam, yojimbo, sansuro and
>sword of doom,the dueling is much more like a life and death situation

And the more agressive and wild the situation, the less like real
fighting the stage fghting becomes!

That's because the director wants the fighting to show a mood, show
character. And show it so the bods in the cheap seats right at the
back can see it.

Zebee

--
Zebee Johnstone (zebee@zip.com.au), proud holder of
aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"Motorcycles are like peanuts... who can stop at just one?"