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Thread: WS England Trophy individual and Corble Cup team, Feb 24-26, 2012

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    WS England Trophy individual and Corble Cup team, Feb 24-26, 2012

    Direct LINK to individual competition (live results).






    4 US sabreueses in T-64

    Zagunis, Wozniak (could meet to get in T-8); Muhammad; Schneider (could face Velikaia to get in T-16).
    It is well to know something of the manners of various peoples, in order more sanely to judge our own, and that we do not think that everything against our modes is ridiculous, and against reason, as those who have seen nothing are accustomed to think.
    René Descartes (1596-1650)

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    Schnieder lost in the 64 (12-15 to H. Liang CHN). Muhammad lost in the 16 (13-15 to I. Vecchi ITA).
    Wozniak beat Zagunis (15-9) in the 16, then lost in the 8 (11-15 to A. Besbes TUN).

    It's going to be near impossible to either Schnieder or Muhammad to pass Wozniak for the 2nd spot at this point.

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    While all the ladies have worked hard this season, I would truly enjoy seeing Dagmara get her Olympic chance, after kind of getting the short end of the sabre in Beijing; being the alternate, not being able to be in the athlete's village, not getting to fence, not getting the medal, not being officially recognized as a full-bore Olympian...
    Craig, Peach, gladius and 1 others like this.
    "Sometimes we, as coaches, get into that dictator mode where you just tell and you don't listen and you don't try to understand them." Tom Izzo, Mich. St.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo View Post
    While all the ladies have worked hard this season, I would truly enjoy seeing Dagmara get her Olympic chance, after kind of getting the short end of the sabre in Beijing; being the alternate, not being able to be in the athlete's village, not getting to fence, not getting the medal, not being officially recognized as a full-bore Olympian...
    Along similar lines, you have to feel for Doris if things stay as they are in WF and she ends up in the 4th spot again.

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    Senior Member Capt. Slo-mo's Avatar
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    I thought Doris got to fence in the team event in Beijing. Did she also ride the bench the entire event?
    "Sometimes we, as coaches, get into that dictator mode where you just tell and you don't listen and you don't try to understand them." Tom Izzo, Mich. St.
    "Fraud is the creation of trust. And then: its betrayal."
    William Black, Ph.D.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo View Post
    I thought Doris got to fence in the team event in Beijing. Did she also ride the bench the entire event?
    No. She didn't fence or get a medal either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo View Post
    I thought Doris got to fence in the team event in Beijing. Did she also ride the bench the entire event?
    Without looking anything up, I don't think she did fence in any matches.

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    Senior Member Capt. Slo-mo's Avatar
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    Then yes...a second straight Olympics as the team alternate would be a less than optimal result.
    "Sometimes we, as coaches, get into that dictator mode where you just tell and you don't listen and you don't try to understand them." Tom Izzo, Mich. St.
    "Fraud is the creation of trust. And then: its betrayal."
    William Black, Ph.D.

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    Still better than anything that the other 99% of us are ever likely to experience, though.
    Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inquartata View Post
    Still better than anything that the other 99% of us are ever likely to experience, though.
    I have a hard time asking someone to put life on hold to prepare for and travel to the Olympics to then have the IOC claim they were not an Olympian. Not sure if that's better than watching on TV.

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    I think the worst would be for the one who would have been even an alternate on the year that there is no team event in your weapon -- simply because fencing doesn't get enough medals.

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    Dagmara better keep her cards close to her chest. Being American and beating Mariel will not be met favorably.

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    Maybe.
    Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!

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    Well I think its great! Good for her . . . hard work, dedication, and I am sure alot of sacrifice. Hopefully that small group that had such a negative impact on our "other" Women's saber Olympic medalists will have learned a lesson. What a loss to American fencing that those two amazing world class athletes are not representing our country this cycle, but kudos to Daga - she deserves her chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k9fav View Post
    Well I think its great! Good for her . . . hard work, dedication, and I am sure alot of sacrifice. Hopefully that small group that had such a negative impact on our "other" Women's saber Olympic medalists will have learned a lesson. What a loss to American fencing that those two amazing world class athletes are not representing our country this cycle, but kudos to Daga - she deserves her chance.
    Tragic: http://www.mckennalong.com/professionals-1380.html and http://www.linkedin.com/pub/becca-ward/40/708/a09
    Jason likes this.

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    Yeah, I was just saying to my husband yesterday that the narrative of the Olympics gets things awfully wrong sometimes. It's a big deal, sort of, to compete in the Olympics, because it's artificially restrictive in both number of competitors and frequency of competition, but it's not nearly as important as it looks. It's hard to feel sad for people who have been able to be top-level athletes and won many important competitions, even if they don't make the Olympics. It's even harder to feel sad for people who have been able to compete in the Olympics and who have gone to good colleges, begun solid careers, and have strong family and personal connections to people who are important to them.

    Maybe the feeling of sorrow is for ourselves, the way we feel regret when a favorite TV series finishes its run, a favorite author stops publishing a series, or a favorite musician stops putting out albums.
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    “The whole of life is just like watching a film. Only it's as though you always get in ten minutes after the big picture has started, and no-one will tell you the plot, so you have to work it out all yourself from the clues.”
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    For the truly talented, the pursuit of excellence is not limited to a single pursuit.
    Your life is not a prize you get at the end of it. But I did get a champagne sabre for my birthday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peach View Post
    Yeah, I was just saying to my husband yesterday that the narrative of the Olympics gets things awfully wrong sometimes. It's a big deal, sort of, to compete in the Olympics, because it's artificially restrictive in both number of competitors and frequency of competition, but it's not nearly as important as it looks. It's hard to feel sad for people who have been able to be top-level athletes and won many important competitions, even if they don't make the Olympics. It's even harder to feel sad for people who have been able to compete in the Olympics and who have gone to good colleges, begun solid careers, and have strong family and personal connections to people who are important to them.
    You touch on important aspects in the life of an elite athlete but the original topic was a different one and I don't think it has been properly addressed, i.e., the role and misfortune of the #4 fencer which may or may not be used in the team event at the Olympics.

    In the past editions (Athens and Beijing) the fourth one would be included "only" for medical reasons of one of the 3 titulars. It was a well known fact that most of the important national fencing federations were playing the "medical" reason to allow the fourth one to compete in the team event and if the team got a medal, 4 medals were awarded instead of 3.

    Since in some federations any Olympic medal is compensated with a financial award given to the medalists, they all did their best to help all 4 and have 4 medalists instead of 3. It was both a kind gesture toward the athletes and a way to nudge the FIE and IOC to include the fourth team member in the Olympic roster.

    This is not however what the USFA did in regards to Doris Willette (WF) and Dagmara Wozniak (WS) in Beijing and many find this objectionable.

    This time in London the rule has been amended allowing a technical substitution as well. It is a step in the right direction but the question then becomes will the national coaches take advantage of this now "clean" opportunity to use all 4 qualified members (the 3 titular and the fourth reserve) to give a chance and the proper recognition to all 4.

    Four years ago, before the Beijing games, USA WS was as dominant in the international scene as Italy's WF is today. Things for USA WS have changed and why this happened is open for discussion. Incidentally, the team event today in London which for the Olympic qualification in WS does not count, saw the USA beating Azerbaijan 45-38, losing to Italy 32-45, then losing to France 40-45, but winning against Poland 45-42, therefore finishing in 7th place, behind Korea, France, China, Italy, Ukraine, and Russia (the winner).

    As to the accomplishments present and future of Sada and Becca outside fencing one can only say that their success in the sport continues in what is the real game of life. Bravo and congratulations to both!

    Allex likes this.
    It is well to know something of the manners of various peoples, in order more sanely to judge our own, and that we do not think that everything against our modes is ridiculous, and against reason, as those who have seen nothing are accustomed to think.
    René Descartes (1596-1650)

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    Not sure about Athens, but in Beijing a replacement athlete could be used at the start of any match (technical). The replacement athlete could be used during the match only for injury. In WS the situation in the final round was they needed to win in order to medal. You can understand they started with their top 3. In WF in the final round they already knew they were getting at least the silver, and at least one of the fencers had a very tough time surviving the semi-final. In all 4 team events, most countries had four athletes on the podium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fdad View Post
    Along similar lines, you have to feel for Doris if things stay as they are in WF and she ends up in the 4th spot again.
    If she is the 4th again, I suspect that the coach in the box will for sure have her fence. The bigger question is will the team come close to a medal.

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