Another new grip...

[Mr Epee]

However, if I've learned one thing it's that some schmuck will think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread...especially if it's deemed illegal.

Truth.

Not that anyone would be a pain about 3 wraps or anything...no one's that literal are they? :-)

The majority of armorers are not at risk of being mistakenly classified as members of the smart and generally good smelling crowd.

[jjefferies]

Given that Dos Santos tends to make decision on things based on if he simply likes it or not (screwless tips, anyone?), ...

Anyone care to enlighten me regarding the comment on screwless tips? I've been using the ESTOC variety for a number of years including two vet world championships and not had any issues. Oh let me qualify that as EPEE.

[Purple Fencer]

Anyone care to enlighten me regarding the comment on screwless tips? I've been using the ESTOC variety for a number of years including two vet world championships and not had any issues. Oh let me qualify that as EPEE.

Unless it's changed (and I don't think it has), screwless tips of all types are not allowed in foil or epee for FIE events...this includes Estoc, Schermasport, Russian, and Zip. I don't know if the restrictions apply to Vet Worlds, however.

In the US they're allowed at all levels of competition (regardless of what the refs/BC thought at the KC NAC this year)


I believe the applicable rule is m.5.5.a

"In foil and épée, only traditional or homologated pointes d'arrêt are accepted. No other kind of pointe d'arrêt, notably new ones that are not homologated, will be accepted at the weapon control."

[KidLazy]

Unless it's changed (and I don't think it has), screwless tips of all types are not allowed in foil or epee for FIE events...this includes Estoc, Schermasport, Russian, and Zip. I don't know if the restrictions apply to Vet Worlds, however.

In the US they're allowed at all levels of competition (regardless of what the refs/BC thought at the KC NAC this year)


I believe the applicable rule is m.5.5.a

"In foil and épée, only traditional or homologated pointes d'arrêt are accepted. No other kind of pointe d'arrêt, notably new ones that are not homologated, will be accepted at the weapon control."

ESTOC screwless tip is the only screwless Homologated by the FIE.
Reason: Unknown.

[migopod]

ESTOC screwless tip is the only screwless Homologated by the FIE.
Reason: Unknown.

I was under the impression that the Schermasport screwless tip was also considered legal. Is this documented somewhere?

[SJCFU#2]

I believe the applicable rule is m.5.5.a

"In foil and épée, only traditional or homologated pointes d'arrêt are accepted. No other kind of pointe d'arrêt, notably new ones that are not homologated, will be accepted at the weapon control."

The key word being "homologated" - my understanding is that at least some manufacturers (Schermasport?) claim their screwless tips have been homologated, and that they have the letters to prove it. It's entirely possible that these claims are true - the requirement for homologated points only dates back a few years while screwless epee points had been in around for over a decade - however short of actually presenting these letters such claims can be difficult to verify since the only lists of approved equipment the FIE seems willing to openly publish are those associated with masks and blades.

[Purple Fencer]

Ah....thanks....I hadn't known any of the screwless tips had gone through the utterly worthless (for them anyway) process of getting approved in spite of existing usage.

Thanks, Dos Santos, for putting up a pointless hoop for manufacturers to jump through.

[jkormann]

Reading some of the reviews on the FdN page, it seems they are worth it. But how do they really hold up and are they more difficult to install?

I'm happy with the FWF tips, but the screws are annoying.

[Alex_Paul]

is there a rule limiting the diameter of a pommel?

[Brick]

The only rule that I think applies to pommels is the "can it fit in the tube" rule. If there is, I haven't seen it stated anywhere.

[Purple Fencer]

There was a discussion on how bulbous the pommel could be, I think, but I don't know where that is.

[piste off]

Reading some of the reviews on the FdN page, it seems they are worth it. But how do they really hold up and are they more difficult to install?

I'm happy with the FWF tips, but the screws are annoying.

Use the LP screws with the FWF points. I have not found a better point setup.

[DHCJr]

The key word being "homologated" - my understanding is that at least some manufacturers (Schermasport?) claim their screwless tips have been homologated, and that they have the letters to prove it. It's entirely possible that these claims are true - the requirement for homologated points only dates back a few years while screwless epee points had been in around for over a decade - however short of actually presenting these letters such claims can be difficult to verify since the only lists of approved equipment the FIE seems willing to openly publish are those associated with masks and blades.

That is not true. Homologated Epee points go back almost 20 years and that is when Schermasport was homologated. Does anyone know why Uhlmann has such funky wire cups? It is because they are from a homologated point from the '90s. During this time the FIE experimented with 2 new requirements, which have been abandoned. They were homologated Sabre blades and Epee tips. The requirement for Epee tips were that they would not go out of adjustment for the shims. Schermasport easily passed, while Uhlmann went through a half-dozen itterations and never was good. They got rid of the tip, but forever more we still have the wire as a reminder. I believe Estoc also passed during that time. I had the Schermasport tips and I liked them.

To make it easier, the manufacturers are supposed to mark the tips to show they have been homologated. Look at the new Uhlmann Foil and Epee tips with their markings.

[DangerMouse]

Use the LP screws with the FWF points. I have not found a better point setup.

I have found the Schermasport screwless to be better, but for availability and cost, the FWF points, AF or PbT wire, and LP screws are the way to go.

[migopod]

This is all an anti-Ziptip conspiracy.

*dons tinfoil hat*

[neevel]

Ah....thanks....I hadn't known any of the screwless tips had gone through the utterly worthless (for them anyway) process of getting approved in spite of existing usage.

Thanks, Dos Santos, for putting up a pointless hoop for manufacturers to jump through.

The Estoc and Schermasport points were 'grandfathered' in, since they were both on the market and in use well before m.5.5.a was put in (hence the "...,notably new ones that are not homologated, ..." statement in the rule).

[SJCFU#2]

That is not true. Homologated Epee points go back almost 20 years and that is when Schermasport was homologated. Does anyone know why Uhlmann has such funky wire cups? It is because they are from a homologated point from the '90s. During this time the FIE experimented with 2 new requirements, which have been abandoned. They were homologated Sabre blades and Epee tips. The requirement for Epee tips were that they would not go out of adjustment for the shims. Schermasport easily passed, while Uhlmann went through a half-dozen itterations and never was good. They got rid of the tip, but forever more we still have the wire as a reminder. I believe Estoc also passed during that time. I had the Schermasport tips and I liked them.

To make it easier, the manufacturers are supposed to mark the tips to show they have been homologated. Look at the new Uhlmann Foil and Epee tips with their markings.

Donald, could you please take a moment and explain which part of what I wrote isn't true?

I believe I stated that some screwless tips predated the current rule, and that some of them may very well have been homologated. And while I do remember the FIE epee points of the early 90's (in fact I've frequently stated my personnel preference for non-German epee wires specifically because I'd rather NOT deal with the raised volcano that is a legacy of those points) I don't recall hearing about Estoc's screwless tip until almost a decade later, by which time I believe the FIE material rules had already dropped the requirements associated with the early 90's FIE epee tip (of course back then the internet was in its infancy so I may have simply been late getting the word).

As to the markings currently found on homologated tips, they only started appearing within the last few years (i.e. after the current rule was added). Prior to then you were lucky to find a manufacturer's name on most tips or barrels (which is not to say that they would not be legal, only that their legality could be difficult to prove).

My biggest complaint about this whole thing is that someone at the FIE presumably maintains a list of homologated items, yet they don't seem very eager to share that information with the rest of the world (at least not for anything other than masks or blades). If you happen to have access to that list and would like to share it with the rest of us then I'm certain it would be appreciated, especially by people like Jjeffries who presumably have older points that they would like to continue to use but who may be hearing conflicting information. Otherwise could someone please explain why this knowledge needs to be treated as if it were a state secret?

[KidLazy]

I have found the Schermasport screwless to be better, but for availability and cost, the FWF points, AF or PbT wire, and LP screws are the way to go.

yeah, since it's no longer for sale anymore... I think.
http://www.negrini.com/eng.php?conte...a=schermasport

[DHCJr]

Donald, could you please take a moment and explain which part of what I wrote isn't true?

I believe I stated that some screwless tips predated the current rule, and that some of them may very well have been homologated. And while I do remember the FIE epee points of the early 90's (in fact I've frequently stated my personnel preference for non-German epee wires specifically because I'd rather NOT deal with the raised volcano that is a legacy of those points) I don't recall hearing about Estoc's screwless tip until almost a decade later, by which time I believe the FIE material rules had already dropped the requirements associated with the early 90's FIE epee tip (of course back then the internet was in its infancy so I may have simply been late getting the word).

As to the markings currently found on homologated tips, they only started appearing within the last few years (i.e. after the current rule was added). Prior to then you were lucky to find a manufacturer's name on most tips or barrels (which is not to say that they would not be legal, only that their legality could be difficult to prove).

My biggest complaint about this whole thing is that someone at the FIE presumably maintains a list of homologated items, yet they don't seem very eager to share that information with the rest of the world (at least not for anything other than masks or blades). If you happen to have access to that list and would like to share it with the rest of us then I'm certain it would be appreciated, especially by people like Jjeffries who presumably have older points that they would like to continue to use but who may be hearing conflicting information. Otherwise could someone please explain why this knowledge needs to be treated as if it were a state secret?

You are absolutely right. I did not read carefully. Thank you for catching my error. You are right about the current marks. Since Uhlmann used the same barrel for their homologated point and their supposedly won't go out of adjustment, they had to have a marking on the tip itself. This was a band around the crown.

I agree with you about the list. I have a feeling that there is no list. Since there is no list. Has anyone got their tips homologated after this new rule? I am wondering why (if they did) Uhlmann went to the expense of homologating their tips. Since they have 2 screws there is no need to. Are they using the homologation from the '90s.

Thank you again.

[Purple Fencer]

Heck...I mentioned to Dan a few years back that it'd be nice to have a list of makers who have have fabric homolugated....