Legality of Sabre Guard

[DHCJr]

I was responding to this thread Bell Guard Shape and it got me thinking, how many Armorers know the rules enough to spot if a guard is illegal. I have taken a few Sabre guards from various websites. From the pictures are these guards legal and if not why are they illegal.

http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/ACG-ele...ve_p_3540.html

http://www.leonpaul.com/acatalog/Lig...bre_Guard.html

http://shop.fencing.net/product_p/fwf-62001.htm

[neevel]

I think I see where you're going with this. The question of legality hinges on whether the manufacturers marks on the guards constitute 'advertising' and are hence forbidden under m5.5.c.

Publicity code p.10.c specifies that on a weapon, the limit for a manufacturer's mark is 'No mark visible from any distance'. The question here is does this mean "No mark visible at all from any distance at all small or great", or "No mark visible from any significant distance".

The original French in the publicity code is 'aucune marque visible à distance.' This translates better as 'No mark visible from a distance', which supports the latter of the above interpretations, subject to the fact that there is no clear definition of how far "a distance" is.

The Leon Paul stamp fairly clearly is small enough to pass under the definition of a mark. Since the way a sabre is held and used make the brand labels present on the plastic insulation of the BG and FWF examples (and Allstar and Uhlmann sabres as well) hard to clearly make out for someone standing outside a typical 'pod' (and from typical viewing stand or TV camera distances), my opinion would be that they do pass muster as a legitimate manfacturers mark and not advertising. Precedent (sabres with such makers logos on the plastic insulation have been around for years) would appear to support this interpretation.

[Craig]

All of those would be legal based on what was allowed at the 2010 World Championships:

http://printroom.com/ViewGalleryPhot...e_id=18&pos=19

[DHCJr]

Neevel understood where my question was coming from. There is a big difference between what is legal and what is passed at a competitions.

The BG logo is borderline for me. But it could easily be concealed with a little tape. I agree with you about the translation too. The wording in English is somewhat vague.

I have been looking at the newest rulebook and some of the changes to the m section that won't happen until the 2012-2013 season. One that is already in place you now can submit 3 bodycords rather than just 2.

Some that have to wait till next season are required groove in the Epee handle for the wires. Nothing about Foil. The tab is now a minimum size rather than exact. Also the sacraficial layer for the visor masks.

[Craig]

But what is passed at a world championship sets the precedent for what is legal.

I understood exactly where you were going with you question, I just don't want some yahoo at a local event carding fencers for this non-issue.

[Natureboy]

But what is passed at a world championship sets the precedent for what is legal.

I understood exactly where you were going with you question, I just don't want some yahoo at a local event carding fencers for this non-issue.

Oh, I'm sure that would never happen

[prototoast]

But what is passed at a world championship sets the precedent for what is legal.

I understood exactly where you were going with you question, I just don't want some yahoo at a local event carding fencers for this non-issue.

Armorers don't seem to understand the concept of case law.

[Eifersucht]

But what is passed at a world championship sets the precedent for what is legal.

I understood exactly where you were going with you question, I just don't want some yahoo at a local event carding fencers for this non-issue.

The manufacturer's mark was covered with red tape, the fencer removed it and the referee did not noticed.

[DHCJr]

But what is passed at a world championship sets the precedent for what is legal.

I understood exactly where you were going with you question, I just don't want some yahoo at a local event carding fencers for this non-issue.

There is no problem with that at local competitions. Maybe at Nationals. Local tournaments are required to ignore certain rules. At Divisional tournaments fencers can put anything on even advertising according to the USFA.

Something that is growing very popular in my area is club patches on the back sleeve. We have two Sabre clubs that even have them on their lamé. These are not sewn on patches. They are put on the same as the name and country code and they meet the requirements for size. They are perfectly legal at our tournaments, but I have warned them that someone might question them at a National tournament.

I don't know they passed at a Worlds. Your pictures only prove that they were used at Worlds. Eifersucht rings true for me. Now the equipment you have to turn in to Control includes, fencing jacket, fencing pants and even socks. Why because the referees can't be bothered with enforcing the rules. Maybe they need to assign an Armorer to every piste to make sure the fencers haven't modified what was passed.

[jkormann]

I've seen club patches for years. Over the weekend saw a saber tourney where the patch was sewn on the rear leg so it didn't cover target.

[DHCJr]

I've seen club patches for years. Over the weekend saw a saber tourney where the patch was sewn on the rear leg so it didn't cover target.

That is not the point and it wouldn't cover target on the front leg either. These also did not cover target, unless you consider the name and country as covering target. I would prefer the consistancy of having the back arm as the place to put 'advertising'. I think it looks better also.

[jkormann]

That is not the point and it wouldn't cover target on the front leg either. These also did not cover target, unless you consider the name and country as covering target. I would prefer the consistancy of having the back arm as the place to put 'advertising'. I think it looks better also.

I don't consider club patches to be advertising so much as representation or loyalty to a club. Agree that back arm or leg should be the place for them.

I read your initial post that they didn't sew the patches on. It didn't occur that they were stenciled in. I use "patch magic" for my patches. Much easier to put on and take off when getting a new jacket.

[DHCJr]

I don't consider club patches to be advertising so much as representation or loyalty to a club. Agree that back arm or leg should be the place for them.

I read your initial post that they didn't sew the patches on. It didn't occur that they were stenciled in. I use "patch magic" for my patches. Much easier to put on and take off when getting a new jacket.

The trouble is they are considered advertising by the rules. For local competitions anything goes and I personally like the ones they have done. The look professional, they meet the spirit of the rules in that they don't cover target and put the saberist on an even keel with everyone else.

For those who work at the National tournaments, would you fail these lamé?