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Thread: A few point-in-line questions

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    Senior Member haroldbuck's Avatar
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    A few point-in-line questions

    Yes, I know everyone will think that this thread sucks because it's about PIL for foil/saber. But I have a few questions for which I think the answers are obvious, but not everyone agrees:

    (1) Fencer A is attacking and Fencer B establishes a point-in-line when Fencer A is within advance lunge distance. We know that if A finishes and both hit, it's A's touch. But A stops completely. B lunges with the line at the same time, before, or after A decides to attack, and both hit valid. Fencer A argues that the line is not valid because it was not established outside of advance-lunge distance.

    (2) Outside of adv-lunge distance, A establishes a PIL. B thinks this is a grand idea and also establishes PIL. They meander into distance and both hit valid.

    Rulings?

    Thanks much.
    -Harold Buck

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    Distance has no bearing on PiL in the rules. Its ADVISABLE to establish it outside of step-lunge distance because it makes it easier for a ref to see it. But if its Line, its Line, shouldn't matter how close you are.

    There.

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    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldbuck View Post
    Yes, I know everyone will think that this thread sucks because it's about PIL for foil/saber. But I have a few questions for which I think the answers are obvious, but not everyone agrees:

    (1) Fencer A is attacking and Fencer B establishes a point-in-line when Fencer A is within advance lunge distance. We know that if A finishes and both hit, it's A's touch. But A stops completely. B lunges with the line at the same time, before, or after A decides to attack, and both hit valid. Fencer A argues that the line is not valid because it was not established outside of advance-lunge distance.

    (2) Outside of adv-lunge distance, A establishes a PIL. B thinks this is a grand idea and also establishes PIL. They meander into distance and both hit valid.

    Rulings?

    Thanks much.
    Whitesnake. (Yep, I went there)


    I don't know where I'm goin
    But I sure know where I've been
    Hanging on the promises in rules of yesterday.
    An' I've made up my mind, I ain't putting out no line
    But here I go again, here I go again.

    Tho' I keep searching for an answer
    I never seem to find what I'm looking for.
    Oh ref, I pray you give me the call to carry on
    'Cause I know what it means to walk along the lonely street, Escrime.

    Here I go again on my own
    Clutchin' the only weapon I've ever known.
    Like a epeeist I was born to grunt and groan.
    An' I've made up my mind, I ain't using point-in-line.
    haroldbuck likes this.
    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WON'T YOU BUY MY TACTICAL WHEEL!!!????

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    Senior Member D'Art's Avatar
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    How can not everyone agree on the answers?
    I'm happy to answer pointed questions as respectfully as my mood permits

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    Senior Member edew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foil.Leicester View Post
    Distance has no bearing on PiL in the rules. Its ADVISABLE to establish it outside of step-lunge distance because it makes it easier for a ref to see it. But if its Line, its Line, shouldn't matter how close you are.

    There.
    Basically this. First, advance-lunge distance is what you make of it. There's no actual numerical quantity that defines advance-lunge. Some fencers can cover a heckuva lot of ground with an advance-lunge and some can't. You can be advancing at me, I stick out my PiL and it's 2 inches from your chest (foil or saber), I retreat as you continue advancing and that tip is 2 inches away. You then commence your attack as I also lunge at you (possibly snapping by blade into multiple pieces). Still my PiL. The PiL was established prior to the start of the attack by the opponent. I'm trying to insinuate also that the multiple advances by the eventual "attacker" was done not as part of a compound attack, just normal advances.
    =)=///

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    Senior Member erooMynohtnA's Avatar
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    I don't know why everyone is trying to answer this. There is only one qualified person on this board: purplefencer. However he says it should be called, it will be called the opposite. It's the Inverse PF law. I'm just going to wait for him to weigh in.
    >:U

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    Senior Member mattacox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haroldbuck View Post
    Yes, I know everyone will think that this thread sucks because it's about PIL for foil/saber. But I have a few questions for which I think the answers are obvious, but not everyone agrees:

    (1) Fencer A is attacking and Fencer B establishes a point-in-line when Fencer A is within advance lunge distance. We know that if A finishes and both hit, it's A's touch. But A stops completely. B lunges with the line at the same time, before, or after A decides to attack, and both hit valid. Fencer A argues that the line is not valid because it was not established outside of advance-lunge distance.

    (2) Outside of adv-lunge distance, A establishes a PIL. B thinks this is a grand idea and also establishes PIL. They meander into distance and both hit valid.

    Rulings?

    Thanks much.
    How long is advance-lunge distance?
    vivoescrimare likes this.

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    Senior Member the ancient one's Avatar
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    If you wear colorful socks or a bandana do not attempt a Point in Line.
    It will never be awarded in your favor, unless your opponent is similarly dressed.
    I base this conclusion on empirical evidence derived from a significantly large sample.
    edew likes this.
    "a braggart, a rogue, a villaine that fights by the book of arithmatick. Why the dev'l came you betweene us?.."

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    John Lydon, Keith Levene, and Jah Wobble

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    Senior Member edew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the ancient one View Post
    If you wear colorful socks or a bandana do not attempt a Point in Line.
    It will never be awarded in your favor, unless your opponent is similarly dressed.
    I base this conclusion on empirical evidence derived from a significantly large sample.
    And if you wear both a bandana and colorful socks, god help you get a point if there's two lights on. Even in epee.
    =)=///

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    Quote Originally Posted by edew View Post
    And if you wear both a bandana and colorful socks, god help you get a point if there's two lights on. Even in epee.
    PiL is clearly something no one understands. I thought I had a good idea of what it was supposed to be at least in theory but then I just heard a national coach say in no uncertain terms that you need at least two tempos to establish point in line in addition to some other things that made my head hurt; now I'm pretty sure I'm just going to call halt if I ever see a line and inform them that PiL is an invalid tactic as there are no premises that lead to whatever the conclusion may be.
    jeff, Allen Evans and Sinestra like this.
    I now dangle to the left....my tassle. Get your minds out of the gutter.
    "Martin was not an optimist; he was a prisoner of hope." Optimism is about assuming there's evidence that justifies your outlook while hope is about creating the evidence and procuring your own happiness or vision of the world. - Professor West

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    Senior Member IanSerotkin's Avatar
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    "PiL is the Blue Screen of Death for ROW." --jeff

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    That Guy Craig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattacox View Post
    How long is advance-lunge distance?
    12 parsecs.

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    Senior Member Allen Evans's Avatar
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    No. You've got point in line confused with the Kessel Run.

    It's a common mistake.

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    Needs to get Outside Inquartata's Avatar
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    Hurrah, another PIL thread! It's been, what? A couple of weeks? I was beginning to have withdrawal symptoms.
    Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!

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    Senior Member shlepzig's Avatar
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    Two things:

    If a fencer has established PIL then it is PIL. Nobody knows how this is done, because it has never happened.

    If fencer A sticks out his arm in a way possibly resembling PIL after the other fencer has begun an action that has ROW, Fencer A deserves whatever he gets.

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    If you are Andrea Cassara in Sicily fencing in the semifinal of the World championship then you have established PIL.
    Otherwise I would look to have as much tempo and distance between you and the attacker as possible; 10 meters and about 20 seconds might do it, might. Be wary of passivity calls.
    Bonehead likes this.
    Beauty is not the goal of competitive sports, but high-level sports are a prime venue for the expression of human beauty. The relation is roughly that of courage to war.

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    Senior Member Grasshopper's Avatar
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    Isn't PIL what Luke used to aim his photo torpedo into the air shaft of the Death Star?
    FOR THE LOVE OF GOD WON'T YOU BUY MY TACTICAL WHEEL!!!????

  19. #19
    mfp
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    Quote Originally Posted by edew View Post
    And if you wear both a bandana and colorful socks, god help you get a point if there's two lights on. Even in epee.
    You may be horrified to hear that you know someone who won an epee national championship while wearing (very, very) colorful socks and a bandana. A bandana with skulls on it.

  20. #20
    Senior Member D'Art's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfp View Post
    You may be horrified to hear that you know someone who won an epee national championship while wearing (very, very) colorful socks and a bandana. A bandana with skulls on it.
    But what shoes were they wearing? And did they use an Italian grip while throwing flaming bagels and drinking Red Bull cola?
    I'm happy to answer pointed questions as respectfully as my mood permits

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