Magnaminous Act, or Gaming the Cadet/Junior World Team?

[Capt. Slo-mo]

So. On 1/24/12, USA Fencing posts this notice:

"In an attempt to encourage our young fencers to compete at Senior World Cups, USA Fencing and Women's Saber National Coach Ed Korfanty have decided to allow cadet and junior fencers to count their points earned from the SWS London competition (24-26 February) in the selection for the 2012 World Cade..."

The very next day they retract the announcement.

Now, the qualification rules for the Cadet and Junior team have presumably been posted for quite some time. Perhaps coincidentally, the WS National Coach has his best young student currently sitting in 4th place on both the Cadet and Junior Team Points list, needing just a few more points to make it on to a team. (as of 1/22/12, per USA Fencing)

Was this merely a selfless gesture to widen competitive opportunities for all, or does this instead give the appearance of a National Coach possibly trying to game the system at the last minute for his own student's benefit?

Discuss...

[Allex]

Dunno, without reading anything (not a good idea) only 1 result between 33 and 64th place counts from SWC and Ms. Palmedo already had it.
OTOH it is odd that a National Team Coach can not change a selection criteria, while he can "invent" it.
The odds of any of Jr. fencers who are not in Top 3 making Top 32 in London SWC during an Olympic Year have to be minuscule.

[KD5MDK]

Would any relevant results have rolled off with the altered dates?

[fdad]

Would any relevant results have rolled off with the altered dates?

Team points don't roll off.

[pillow]

No matter how you look at it, any attempt to change previously published selection criteria for National Teams simply smells bad. Shame on Korfanty. I don't care if it would help or hurt his fencers---you simply do not change selection criteria once the season has started.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Would any relevant results have rolled off with the altered dates?

Well, that's a good question, isn't it? Since the original posting no longer exists, all we have to go on is "decided to allow cadet and junior fencers to count their points earned from the SWS London competition (24-26 February) in the selection for the 2012 World..."

So, is it "count the points no matter what," or as Allex was saying, allow the points to supplant? Both Sklya Powers and Sage Palmedo in the Cadet ranks had top-64 results in NYC, worth around 200 points. If Palmedo went to London, and Lena Johnson, the #3 cadet with only a 41 point lead on Palmedo didn't, then another 200 points would change the team--if unilaterally allowed. Meanwhile in Junior, Palmedo is only 46 points behind Margaret McDonald for an outright Junior team slot--and Palmedo appears to have an open Group 2 slot, so any points should stick.

Couple of things didn't make sense to me about this late plan. First, who in USA Fencing thought it was that easy to change the long established rules of national team qualification in the last month of competition? And secondly, if the goal was to "encourage our young fencers to compete at Senior World Cups" why this single event, late add, one-off competition, instead of a comprehensive, multi-pronged plan?

Pushing entry dates back could be considered as encouraging. So would waiving entry fees, or having the National Coach of every weapon personally contact the top 8 Cadet and Junior fencers and exhort them to buy some international airfares. So would tossing in some squad money to defray a few of the expenses.

But when only one National Coach comes up with a plan as arguably sketchy as this at the last moment, you have to wonder: Cui Bono?

[Allex]

Speaking strictly of Jr WS team - JO's weekend is always challenging for those on the bubble, as the Budapest Jr WC is at the same time, and this year there is no way to participate in both. IIRC there was a young lady that fenced in JO's and Budapest on the same weekend a while ago.

So, the point standings are a bit deceiving :

http://assets.usoc.org/assets/docume..._0122_2012.pdf

1. Top 2 have made the team - end'o'question.

2. Mathematically ##'s 3-7 have a shot at getting the 3rd slot.

3. The only person who got points in London last year was Ms. Merza - 172 of them on 2/27/11 - why these 172 points are not counted towards the team standings is not clear, at least to me.

4. Only Ms. Merza and Ms. Palmedo are going to the Sr WC in Orleans, France - 2/11/2012 - even if US quota was not filled for that event. Theoretically, they would need a finish in Top 32 to have a significant point total improvement, which in Olympic Year is quite a longshot

5. The best chance, IMHO, is at the disposal of Ms. Merza who has an open domestic slot - courtesy of the black card in Portland NAC Jr's, and then having a disastrous D1 2 days later. A top 16 finish at JO's will put her in the lead for that spot.

6. ##'s 3,4, and 7 are going to Budapest Jr WC instead of SLC JO's. So if Ms. Merza's London points do not count and she makes top 8 in SLC, one of them would need a 28th place finish or better to make the team. If Ms. Merza's London points count and she makes top 8 in SLC, a top 12 finish or better would beat her total.

6. There is a Jr. World Cup event in Phoenix on 2/5 - last year the winner received 200 category 1 points. I was told that this year it is an "official" WC - by the organizers, whom I personally tend to trust. Thus the winner should get at least 300 category 2 points or better, etc, etc, etc, which any of the "contestants" could use. Of the fencers who have a chance to make the team only Ms. Johnson and Ms. Palmedo are attending the event - which might prove as a difference in standings.

So if you look at the point totals, the candidates, and events they are attending - the landscape is quite uneven; not a single fencer has the same schedule of events :

# 3 - 2618 points - will go to Budapest Jr WC

# 4 - 2572 points - will go to Phoenix Jr WC, Orleans SR WC, and Budapest Jr WC

#5 - 2369 points - will go to Orleans SR WC, and SLC JO's (has an open domestic slot, and missing Sr WC 172 points)

#6 - 1970 points - will go to SLC JO's

#7 - 1955 points - will go Phoenix Jr WC, and Budapest Jr WC

To me, at least, London Sr WC would provide 1 event in which the 5 candidates for the 3rd spot would compete in the same "make it" or "break it" event. In such a close race with way too many subplots - it seemed kind of fair.

If any of the aforementioned math is incorrect - I'm all for changing it.

[fdad]

2012 WOMEN’S FOIL JUNIOR WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SELECTION CRITERIA
Moscow, Russia – March 31-April 8, 2012
UPDATED: August 26, 2011
SELECTION DATE: February 20, 2012
SELECTION: The top three athletes in the National Junior Team Point Standings will be selected as members of the Junior World Team and eligible to compete in the individual and team competitions.
SUM OF GROUP I AND GROUP II
GROUP I = SUM OF FOUR HIGHEST POINTS EARNED AT 1-7
1. NAC Under-19: July 2011
2. NAC Junior (Under-20): November 2011
3. NAC Junior (Under-20): January 2012
4. NAC Division I: December 2011
5. NAC Division I: January 2012
6. Junior Olympic Under-20 Championships: February 2012
7. Competitions specified in Group II below not included in Group II sum
GROUP II = SUM OF THE THREE HIGHEST POINTS EARNED AT 8-11
8. 11/1/11 – 2/12/12: Designated Junior World Cup competitions
9. 05/01/11– 2/12/12: Senior World Cup and Grand Prix competitions
(MAXIMUM of TWO 33-64 results count)
10. 2011 Junior World Championships (top 16 results)
11. 2011 Senior World Championships (top 32 results)
NOTE:
Points awarded for the 2011 Division I National Championships will be considered for Rolling Points Only. Points will be awarded for places 33-64 at Senior, Junior and Cadet NACs if there are at least 160 fencers in the competition. These points will be used for seeding national competitions. In order to be considered on the
point standings for the purposes of selection or qualification for each category there must be at least one 32nd place result and the total points must be at least: senior = 275; junior = 165; cadet = 110.

For the second time on this thread - *team points don't roll off*. They only include results from the current season. That is why Ms. Merza's result from last season doesn't count. One of the biggest flaws in the current system is the USFA's insistence on selecting the team at JOs where JOs are scheduled well before the end of the JWC season and well before the FIE registration deadline for teams. There are several JWCs and SWCs that just don't count (I guess they could count for rolling) since they come after USFA's self imposed selection deadline and before the end of the season.

[Mr Epee]

A) It is tradition to name US squads at JO's.

B) Whether this is the best possible time is debatable.

C) That debate/decision must come prior to the current selection period.

It seems pretty straightforward.

Personally, off the cuff, I prefer that the final selection event be domestic competition, but there are good arguments on both sides of that issue.

I'm a little surprised to hear whispers of corruption, favoritism and scandal coming from the saber community. You'd think a sport centered around frequently changing fractions of a second in the scoring machines, constantly fluctuating interpretations of basic techniques, and dominated by cliques of eastern-European coaches would be rock solid.

Also, rumors of trouble in the Middle-East.

[fdad]

a) That tradition originated before FIE shifted WC calendar and likely before USFA decided that the majority of points used for selection would come from international events. Because we've always done it that way isn't a very good reason.
b) Yes, it is. I am debating it now.
c) Agreed. Changing it now for this season is not appropriate. Changing it now for subsequent seasons would be a good idea.

I would prefer a coordinated USFA/FIE season that used a series of domestic events during the current season to select the participants in that season's international events. The current overlapping model where we have a "championship" with lessor importance than a simultaneous WC is a mess. Even in the case where there is no conflict, JOs coming when most fencers in the running have already nearly maxed out on Group I points means that frequently, the top fencers don't show up for the "championship". If you want the championship to matter, place it during SN and count the points for next season. JOs are great, but having them in mid-February means that they fall far short as the one and only championship.

[pillow]

a) That tradition originated before FIE shifted WC calendar and likely before USFA decided that the majority of points used for selection would come from international events. Because we've always done it that way isn't a very good reason.
b) Yes, it is. I am debating it now.
c) Agreed. Changing it now for this season is not appropriate. Changing it now for subsequent seasons would be a good idea.

I would prefer a coordinated USFA/FIE season that used a series of domestic events during the current season to select the participants in that season's international events. The current overlapping model where we have a "championship" with lessor importance than a simultaneous WC is a mess. Even in the case where there is no conflict, JOs coming when most fencers in the running have already nearly maxed out on Group I points means that frequently, the top fencers don't show up for the "championship". If you want the championship to matter, place it during SN and count the points for next season. JOs are great, but having them in mid-February means that they fall far short as the one and only championship.

The selection process for the Cadet and Junior teams remains a pathetic mess, immune to change due to the shortsightedness of the USFA and the self-interest of our national coaches, among others. Group II points will always take priority; after all, the kids are going for a World team to fence a World Championship, so Gp I Domestic points will never be allowed to give the same points as Gp II.

I'll tell you what I would like to see that would be easy to do, and would make the JOs truly the Junior and Cadet National Championship it is by the current rules. I would simple require that the JOs are a MANDATORY event for all fencers who want to make the team. No Cadet designated or JWCs are to be scheduled over the JOs. You want to make the World team, then you fence the JOs which becomes a required Gp I event. That way the best fencers must show up, even if they have already cliched a spot on the team, and the JOs becomes a true Championship. Nobody sits out the event, and nobody goes to a World Cup instead. Simple.

[fdad]

Single mandatory events (in addition to Worlds) are not very attractive (especially in the middle of USFA, NCAA, FIE seasons) because kids sometimes get hurt (and for some weapons our Senior Team is mostly Juniors - and Senior WCs should take priority for them) - keeping the obvious top fencer off the World Team because of a conflict or injury would be worse than what we have now.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Here's another thought that occurred to me. (and I have to treasure these, because it's becoming a less frequent event )

The timing of the now retracted change in qualification standards seems to have been inside the 30 days ticket pricing threshold, making it more expensive to add this late trip for the affected Cadet and Junior fencers...and presumably somewhat less attractive.

It might be enlightening to see the list of entrants to the London event already registered as of 1/24/12. There used to be such an international page on the US Fencing website, but I can't seem to find it.

[pillow]

Single mandatory events (in addition to Worlds) are not very attractive (especially in the middle of USFA, NCAA, FIE seasons) because kids sometimes get hurt (and for some weapons our Senior Team is mostly Juniors - and Senior WCs should take priority for them) - keeping the obvious top fencer off the World Team because of a conflict or injury would be worse than what we have now.

If you are not injured, and you don't have a Senior World Cup the weekend of the JOs, you should be required to fence the JOs to be eligible for the Cadet and Junior teams. If you want to represent your country in the World Champs, then you must be expected to fence your own National Championships.

[fdad]

If you are not injured, and you don't have a Senior World Cup the weekend of the JOs, you should be required to fence the JOs to be eligible for the Cadet and Junior teams. If you want to represent your country in the World Champs, then you must be expected to fence your own National Championships.

Would you say the same for Seniors? Ms. Z hasn't fenced at a USFA event in a very long time. I have no problem expecting fencers to participate in the Nat'l Champs., but I think the current schedule places the Nat'l Champs at the worst possible time.

[Bonehead]

Would you say the same for Seniors? Ms. Z hasn't fenced at a USFA event in a very long time. I have no problem expecting fencers to participate in the Nat'l Champs., but I think the current schedule places the Nat'l Champs at the worst possible time.

I think a lot of counties run into the Domestic/International problem. The root of the problem comes from the fact that even the strongest domestic tournaments are an order of magnitude different, and more difficult than the tournaments that the top athletes of the country want to be successful at.

Especially in the geographically larger, but still weaker countries, (Australia, Canada, US, China/Russia maybe?) it's hard to imagine the incentive for a top athlete to want to spend a lot of money to get on a plane to fly to a tournament that doesn't provide the experience they need to improve. In countries like france or italy, the domestic events are already bordering on world class, and the travel isn't even that difficult so it's not a problem for them.

One solution is top make National championships (or other domestic tournaments) mandatory, either directly (you have to come or else) or by weighting some sort of qualification so that the top athletes basically have to go to qualify (or some combination thereof). I think this sort of works, but it still doesn't really make the top athletes take the tournament seriously - and you still have the problem that it's not beneficial for success in their season. There are already big tournaments that they need to attend, and the time/financial/energy burden to go to one more that doesn't even matter/help is kind of rough.

Obviously as a federation you want them to go to as many domestic tournaments as possible. This is how you can bring up your domestic fencers without needing them to travel internationally.

I wonder, just throwing ideas out here, is it not possible to host a large international tournament, but on home soil, and consider the results form that as "Nationals". It might be very difficult to get another tournament into the FIE schedule, but if you could incentivise strong international fencers to show up, then it's at least a good practice event for the top fencers, plus it solves the problem of local fencers not getting to fence strong fencers as much.

Maybe some country has tried this already?

[oiuyt]

It might be enlightening to see the list of entrants to the London event already registered as of 1/24/12. There used to be such an international page on the US Fencing website, but I can't seem to find it.

https://www.railstation.org/usfencin...tID=2144109006

Doesn't include time stamp of entry, but I don't think the old page did either.

-B

[teacup]

European Jr/Cadet Championships:
Feb. 29 - Mar. 3, 2012
http://www.eurofencing.info/championships

Canadian U15/Cdt/Jr/Sr/Vet Championships:
May 18 -21, 2012
http://www.fencing.ca/english_index.html

[hello?]

I don't think it's absurd to suggest that if you want to be on the team, you have to fence the Championship (unless you have a legitimate excuse, such as an injury). Some years ago, the NCAA stipulated that if you wanted to fence at that Championship, you had to attend Regionals (many top competitors were skipping them in favor of World Cups, knowing that they were already one of the top two in their schools).

That said, I also agree that the "Championship" has to be better placed -- i.e. not be a silly JOs that conflicts with the international calendar.

[pillow]

Would you say the same for Seniors? Ms. Z hasn't fenced at a USFA event in a very long time. I have no problem expecting fencers to participate in the Nat'l Champs., but I think the current schedule places the Nat'l Champs at the worst possible time.

For sure. I have long thought it ridiculous that we do not require our top ranked fencers to compete in our own National Championships in order to be eligible for World teams. Seniors should be no exception. I agree with you that the timing of our Nationals should not conflict with FIE events.

Why not place the JO's, (renamed as the Cadet and Junior National Championships) in October, before the Cadet designated and Junior World Cup season starts in November. Put the Div I Nationals in December before the Senior World Cups begin. That way there is no conflict for anyone, and the best are mandated to fence. Entry to the Div I Champs would be the same as now, in that anyone on the Senior Rolling list is eligible. If the Senior World Champs is moved to the summer from its current October, as I understand from the FIE Congress meeting, then having the Div I Champs in December eliminates any conflicts with the SN in July. It also allows plenty of room for Div I NACs--Sept, Oct, Nov, Jan, Feb, April--are all fine for Div I NACs, with the Champs in December. Just avoid the conflict with the Junior Worlds in April.