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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #1
JFairch
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More bad TV fencing.

I'm a little embaraced to admit that I actually saw this peice of drivel, but,
did anyone else out there see the so-called "fencing" on Joe Millionaire? They
used sword and dagger (apparently stage wepons) without the benifit of masks or
safe clothing in an obviously uncoriographed game of
let's-run-around-swinging-swords-at-each-other-in-an-unorganized-manner-an
d-call-it-fencing. I was holding my breath expecting a serous injury. Luckily
the only possible injury I saw was to the public's perception of the noble art.

Jon
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #2
Amy & Joseph Kormann
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

JFairch wrote:

>Luckily
>the only possible injury I saw was to the public's perception of the noble art.
>
>Jon
>
>

I'll presume you're talking about fencing... <grin>

--
Amy and Joseph Kormann


 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #3
Bryan J. Maloney
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

Amy & Joseph Kormann <ajkormann@monmouth.com> wrote in
news:3E3D0EF1.4030008@monmouth.com:

> JFairch wrote:
>
>>Luckily
>>the only possible injury I saw was to the public's perception of the
>>noble art.
>>
>>Jon
>>
>>

> I'll presume you're talking about fencing... <grin>
>


Fencing AND stage combat were horribly insulted to the degree that,
whatever nobility you think they may or may not have, a case for
satisfaction could be made for either.
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #4
David Chak
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

jfairch@aol.com (JFairch) wrote in message news:<20030202005636.27734.00000545@mb-mj.aol.com>...
> I'm a little embaraced to admit that I actually saw this peice of drivel, but,
> did anyone else out there see the so-called "fencing" on Joe Millionaire? They
> used sword and dagger (apparently stage wepons) without the benifit of masks or
> safe clothing in an obviously uncoriographed game of
> let's-run-around-swinging-swords-at-each-other-in-an-unorganized-manner-an
> d-call-it-fencing. I was holding my breath expecting a serous injury. Luckily
> the only possible injury I saw was to the public's perception of the noble art.
>
> Jon


I didn't see the episode of Joe Millionaire, but I did see some pretty
bad TV fencing on Gilmore Girls recently.

David
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #5
Alison1daland
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

>I didn't see the episode of Joe Millionaire, but I did see some pretty
>bad TV fencing on Gilmore Girls recently.
>
>David


I saw that too. Ordinarily I am a huge fan of Gilmore Girls, but that was just
plain lame. I must admit it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but it wasn't
what i was expecting, or at least hoping for, after watching the commercial.
The producers and directors need to try a little bit harder...or maybe alot
harder...
~Alison
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #6
Perry Quan
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 00:24:28 +0000 (UTC), wreckferret
<jerpxsreerg@hxez.arg> wrote:

>I don't know about Joe Millionaire, but the "fencing" in the last Bond
>flick was so facile it was frankly awful.


I haven't seen it. I'll wait to rent it. Regardless of the quality
of the fencing, it has generated interest in the sport. The inquiries
for beginners lessons jumped significantly after the movie came out.
Our two January classes are completely full.
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #7
Zebee Johnstone
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

In rec.sport.fencing on Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:13:52 +0000 (UTC)
wreckferret <jerpxsreerg@hxez.arg> wrote:
>
>I do understand what you're saying. A few so-inspired beginners have
>come up to me and complained saying that fencing's nothing like what
>it is in the film, as they're "forever" doing drills and suchlike. I
>hope that the climate of "instant gratification" is not as widespread
>as I cynically believe it to be. That people have to practise hard and
>try new tactics is the main thing here, not just swing a piece of
>metal about like some kind of demented Errol Flynn...


A lot of it depends on the instructor and the way the class "feels".

My fencing master is very good at motivating people.. He uses a lot
of humour, a lot of one-on-one, and the result is that people keep
coming back even though they don't get to "fight".

It's a skill and a talent - he's had a long time to develop!

The one-on-one is, I think, very important, and hard for a club with
more than a few people to do. He says that in Italy where he trained
they don't do much group lesson stuff at all, that it's all one on one
there, and that's what he prefers. We aren't paying him, he does it
for the love of it, I doubt a club that isn't so lucky would be able
to provide that sort of training.

Zebee
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #8
David H
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Re: More bad TV fencing.


> I don't know about Joe Millionaire, but the "fencing" in the last Bond
> flick was so facile it was frankly awful.


You know the fencing in the Bond movie was all put together by Leon Paul
fencing....they are advertising it on their site to no end. They supplied
the equipment and recommended fencers, plus a British national coach
apparently helped put together the action itself.


 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #9
David H
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Re: More bad TV fencing.


> I'm well aware of all that. The problem as I see it was with the
> choreography that the director and the screenplay writers wanted. I
> don't think the coach and the fencers had free rein to do as they
> liked...


Maybe that is the case....


 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #10
David Chak
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

alison1daland@aol.com (Alison1daland) wrote in message news:<20030203172429.25293.00000260@mb-fe.aol.com>...
> >I didn't see the episode of Joe Millionaire, but I did see some pretty
> >bad TV fencing on Gilmore Girls recently.
> >
> >David

>
> I saw that too. Ordinarily I am a huge fan of Gilmore Girls, but that was just
> plain lame. I must admit it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but it wasn't
> what i was expecting, or at least hoping for, after watching the commercial.
> The producers and directors need to try a little bit harder...or maybe alot
> harder...
> ~Alison


I agree with Alison - the fencing on Gilmore Girls was lame. There
were two points I found funny though. 1, When Rory said to Paris
something like, How could you read my face? I am wearing a mask! Yet
you COULD see her face! I think they had a light inside their masks
because I cannot see the faces of my competitors like I could see
theirs on TV! And 2, what fencing instructor is going to let her
students run around her gym (off the fencing strip) swinging foils
around like windmills?

David
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #11
Perry Quan
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

On Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:55:01 -0500, "David H"
<dahingos@nospam.monarchelectric.com> wrote:

>
>> I'm well aware of all that. The problem as I see it was with the
>> choreography that the director and the screenplay writers wanted. I
>> don't think the coach and the fencers had free rein to do as they
>> liked...

>
>Maybe that is the case....


It's very likely the case. I did a commercial once which featured
fencing. The director had us fence and was sorely disappointed since
all the actions were so small. He wanted "something bigger, bolder!"
So I said to my partner in crime, "He wants crash, bang, wallop. So
lets give him crash, bang, wallop!"
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #12
Zebee Johnstone
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

In rec.sport.fencing on 4 Feb 2003 23:10:33 -0600
Perry Quan <ryersonfencing@yahoo.ca.invalid> wrote:
>
>It's very likely the case. I did a commercial once which featured
>fencing. The director had us fence and was sorely disappointed since
>all the actions were so small. He wanted "something bigger, bolder!"
>So I said to my partner in crime, "He wants crash, bang, wallop. So
>lets give him crash, bang, wallop!"


Of course. For one thing, the object of the fencer is to make small
deceptive movements, so that no one can tell where the sword is, where
it's going, or the timing.

The object of the director is to show the audience that the swords are
moving, and to have them anticipate where they are going to go.

Plus the director will likely have things they want the fighting to
say. The obvious example of this is the fencing scene in The Court
Jester, where the moves Danny Kaye makes change drastically depending
on whether he's the scared Giacomo or the hypnotised brave one. The
movements have to be exaggerated so the audience can read the body
language.

Not to mention that the actors have to learn the routine so they can
do it fast enough to look "right", and not hurt each other. If they
aren't fencers, then either it's got to be simple moves with swords
clashing together well off target, or it takes days and days of
rehearsal. Or you use someone else... much of the fencing scene in
the 1937 Prisoner of Zenda takes place at long distance because the
fencing master was standing in for Ronald Colman.

Stage fencing is an art with its own needs and rules. Annoying as
hell, because if someone sees a movie and wants to learn to fight with
sowrds, they don't want modern fencing, they want to fight like the
movies. The SCA armoured combat is the closest for untrained people,
and that's usually too much work and too many bruises So fencers -
modern, classical, historic - have to work out how to enthuse them
with real fencing.

has anyone worked out what things about modern fencing strike a chord
with the average bod who only knows movie fencing?

Zebee


--
Zebee Johnstone (zebee@zip.com.au), proud holder of
aus.motorcycles Poser Permit #1.
"Motorcycles are like peanuts... who can stop at just one?"
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #13
Perry Quan
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

On 5 Feb 2003 08:24:40 GMT, zebee@zip.com.au (Zebee Johnstone) wrote:


>Stage fencing is an art with its own needs and rules. Annoying as



Oddly, he had started with actors who had stage combat training, but
didn't like "the look" that they presented and decided to rustle up a
pair of real fencers.
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #14
Perry Quan
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:14:33 +0000 (UTC), wreckferret
<jerpxsreerg@hxez.arg> wrote:

>Or it could be the joy of poking people with a long bit of metal...


That's me! I like hitting people with pointed sticks.
 
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Old 03-10-2003, 09:32 AM   #15
JFairch
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Re: More bad TV fencing.

>You know the fencing in the Bond movie was all put together by Leon Paul
>fencing....they are advertising it on their site to no end. They supplied
>the equipment and recommended fencers, plus a British national coach
>apparently helped put together the action itself.


According to the new Book, By The Sword, by Richard Cohen, this coach/fight
choreographer is Bob Anderson who worked on some of my favorite movies, The
Princess Bride, Mask of Zorro, Lord of The Rings and, he even donned the Vader
suit for the light saber fights with Luke in SW:TESB and ROTJ.

I thought the fencing in the Bond movie looked real enough, at least until they
switched to broadswords, and even that wasn't to bad of a movie broadsword
fight. I did notice that they were fencing electric epee without wires though,
which is certainly wishful thinking.

BTW: By The Sword is a very engrossing book on the history of swordplay. It
gives an entertaining look at dueling and olympic fencing, and there are also
chapters on the Samuri, Hollywood fencing, swordmaking, and the Mensur. It's
well referenced and the naration is lively.



Jon
 
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