Reversing shoulders in foil

[haroldbuck]

I remember long ago being told that it was illegal to reverse the shoulders (distinct from turning the back; think taking a giant crossover step where you finish with your non-weapon shoulder ahead of your weapon shoulder) in foil and that it was a yellow card. I remember someone who would know telling me this. But I can't find any reference to it in the current rules. Did this exist at once poi and has since been removed, or am I losing it?

Thanks!

[Goldgar]

I remember long ago being told that it was illegal to reverse the shoulders (distinct from turning the back; think taking a giant crossover step where you finish with your non-weapon shoulder ahead of your weapon shoulder) in foil and that it was a yellow card. I remember someone who would know telling me this. But I can't find any reference to it in the current rules. Did this exist at once poi and has since been removed, or am I losing it?

Yes, it was illegal some time ago (I can't remember when), but hasn't been for years.

[Beloit Fencer of Old]

Good catch noticing the change. I've found that having spent most of my fencing life not being able to reverse shoulders, I have a hard time training myself TO reverse them. There's a huge advantage in being able to now for infighting. Just remember that you can still get a yellow card when reversing shoulders if you have your unarmed arm by your side...you could be covering target.

[Purple Fencer]

I thought the reversing the shoulders rule was eliminated almost a decade ago? I seem to recall it when I was still competing.
The ability to reverse shoulders was a factor when designed my full shirt underarm protectors, since if you reverse and then the blade breaks, you have no additional protection for the off side.

[mrbiggs]

IIRC it was eliminated at the same time as the new timings, so 2005.

I always assumed that it wasn't a coincidence (possibly to make up for the fact that it's harder to hit in close with the longer timings) but I don't think I based that on anything.

[fencerX]

http://capdiv.usfencing.org/forms/Ne...August2004.pdf

[SJCFU#2]

This is one of those areas where a review of the FOC Referee Study Guide can be informative - many of the potential answers reflect one-time standard practices which were abandoned when a rule was changed (my personal favorite is question 33, where each of the three answers has been correct at some point in the last twenty years).

[haroldbuck]

So, the follow-up questions are:

Why was it illegal?

Why is it no longer illegal?

[Bonehead]

So, the follow-up questions are:

Why was it illegal?

Why is it no longer illegal?

I think it was illegal do to the fact that you're very likely to cover target while doing it. You see this a lot with the british juniors. They reverse their shoulders for a close riposte/remise, but leave their arm against their body. This sort of passively blocks the blade. A good ref would card this, but a lot of people would say this is allowed because reversing your shoulders is allowed.

I imagine they added the rule for simplicities sake, and then removed it to allow more options.

[jkormann]

This would seem to create a safety hazard with a front-zip jacket.

[posineg]

I'm pretty new to the fencing seen and have a quick question concerning this. A fleche would also reverse your shoulders in a minor fashion, would it not? Was fleche legal at the same time?

I had always thought that any crossing of the feet was considered a fleche even a single step which would reverse the shoulders.

[Purple Fencer]

This would seem to create a safety hazard with a front-zip jacket.

True, but to me it seems VERY slight. Reversing during infighting isn't going to give the same exposure to a thrust to the zipper compared to reversing before a lunge from a couple of meters out.

[Purple Fencer]

I'm pretty new to the fencing seen and have a quick question concerning this. A fleche would also reverse your shoulders in a minor fashion, would it not? Was fleche legal at the same time?

I had always thought that any crossing of the feet was considered a fleche even a single step which would reverse the shoulders.

A proper fleche does not reverse the shoulders...you're not facing your opponent at a dead run.

Crossing of the feet is not a fleche in and of itself. You can do a cross forward advance all day long...but it's not a fleche.

Watch fencer on the right http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7qt0mIAB74 THAT'S a fleche....note that there is NO hint of a reversal of the shoulders (it's epee, but it would look the same in foil). The whole idea is to land the hit before your rear foot even hits the ground.

The fleche was legal in all three weapons for a long time...I don't remember when it was banned for sabre, tho.

[Grasshopper]

I think it was illegal do to the fact that you're very likely to cover target while doing it.

Kinda. It was more to do with squirming issues, I think. Meaning that when everybody was flicking, you could get real creative with your squirming to make points land flat (cough Joppich cough). Foil started looking real ugly... By limiting the shoulder movement, they thought that would be enough to fix foil. It wasn't, so they changed the timings. Then came the neck blockers... (Gruchala cough Joppich cough Vezzali cough) which gave rise to the increased target area. Just my take on it though...

[SJCFU#2]

...I don't remember when it was banned for sabre, tho.

Early 90's, shortly after the introduction of electric saber.

I believe the goal was to eliminate, or at least slow down, the two freight trains charging at one another at the first hint of the word "Allez", each hoping that the referee (weren't they still called "directors" back then?) would see it as their attack. To my untrained eye (at the time I avoided saber whenever possible) it appeared that all it really accomplished was to add an extra beat between "Allez!" and "Halte!" as both fencers would immediately began their own advance lunge, each hoping that the referee would see it as their attack.

[dramamine]

Kinda. It was more to do with squirming issues, I think. Meaning that when everybody was flicking, you could get real creative with your squirming to make points land flat (cough Joppich cough). Foil started looking real ugly... By limiting the shoulder movement, they thought that would be enough to fix foil. It wasn't, so they changed the timings. Then came the neck blockers... (Gruchala cough Joppich cough Vezzali cough) which gave rise to the increased target area. Just my take on it though...

Joppich is a sneaky sea monster

[Inquartata]

To my untrained eye (at the time I avoided saber whenever possible) it appeared that all it really accomplished was to add an extra beat between "Allez!" and "Halte!" as both fencers would immediately began their own advance lunge, each hoping that the referee would see it as their attack.

Actually the problem wasn't sabre fencers simultaneous running at each other, but that once begun a running attack was almost impossible to stop or defend. One of the more successful fencers of the day would in fact immediately retreat at "fence", all the way to his end of the strip, simply in order to get a longer "runway". As long he was out of distance it didn't matter if his opponent was pursuing him with a run of his own, because once he started he was faster and the opponent would abandon the chase in favor of hasty ( and usually fruitless ) retreat...

[jkormann]

I thought it was because the directors were tired of spinning pencils or flipping coins to determine priority. Might as well auger using chicken bones as one ref put it.

[edew]

I'm pretty new to the fencing seen and have a quick question concerning this. A fleche would also reverse your shoulders in a minor fashion, would it not? Was fleche legal at the same time?

I had always thought that any crossing of the feet was considered a fleche even a single step which would reverse the shoulders.

Don't know how a flèche would reverse shoulders. Seems like an awkward motion to reverse shoulders while fleching (and felching, too.)

[edew]

Kinda. It was more to do with squirming issues, I think. Meaning that when everybody was flicking, you could get real creative with your squirming to make points land flat (cough Joppich cough). Foil started looking real ugly... By limiting the shoulder movement, they thought that would be enough to fix foil. It wasn't, so they changed the timings. Then came the neck blockers... (Gruchala cough Joppich cough Vezzali cough) which gave rise to the increased target area. Just my take on it though...

Reversing shoulders was instituted in late 80s to thwart the german style of fencing where they'd come at you with the reversed shoulder and the propellor action with the non-weapon arm. It was also at about the time of the flick, but the two had no bearing on each other. By the time the reverse shoulder rule had been in effect for a generation-plus, the new timing threw off the flicks.