Interesting reference to old rules...

[Inquartata]

I am still waiting for the FIE to pick up singlestick again. Heck, maybe mensur into the bargain!

[riceboy]

I am still waiting for the FIE to pick up singlestick again. Heck, maybe mensur into the bargain!

That'd be awesome, but wouldn't it be awesome to see them pick up heavy saber again!

[Inquartata]

The fatalities and amputations might be a bit disconcerting to those with gentler sensibilities.

[Thias]

There are people in the USA trying this out also, very close to the way this discussion has envisioned.

http://lancetfencing.wordpress.com/
http://www.daggerfencing.com/

Experimenting by curious individuals and interested groups is a good place to work on the possibilities.

As a current practitioner of Lancet fencing I wanted to throw my $.02 in. I currently fence with Redstar and have been participating in Lancet fencing since I joined about 18 months ago. I consider myself a modern sport fencer, (foil and sabre in my case), as do most Lancet fencers that I know.

Lancet fencing is not in the same realm as "Classical fencing." It was started by modern fencers and is done by modern fencers. What we've been trying to do is expand upon the concepts present in modern sport fencing and move the sport, rather than the martial art, forward. The concepts of tempo, stopping hits, and target priorities are already an integral aspect of modern sport fencing. We're simply expanding the possibilities and creating a new yet totally recognizable sport fencing. If you look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Neoevwcbk3I (a modern rapier bout with lancet rules, fully annotated), you will recognize most of the actions from modern sport fencing. (OK, OK...the off hand parries thrown by Phil is the obvious exception, but this is one of the new aspects this sport would bring to fencing.)

Those of us who practice Lancet actively are a group of curious individuals, but we prefer to look forward to the future of sport fencing rather than backwards to classical and antiquated fencing as a martial art or sport.

[migopod]

I just wanted to point out that the hilt assembly of the lancet is pretty badass looking. Kinda like a science fiction rapier.

[bdavis]

So I sit pretty squarely...

Riceboy,
You may not have read this entire thread. To loop this thread back to where it started, an invitation for the Redwood Coast Assault of Arms sent to the original poster (erik_blank) and his interest in the Association for Historical Fencing rules.

I know of a showcase for your superior skill and experience as a Classical and Historical fencer. Perhaps you would be so kind as to teach some on the strip lessons relating to precise blade action, tempo, and balance in footwork at the Redwood Coast Assault of Arms. As any tournament, it could use a greater number of participants. Perhaps you could bring along some of the other instructors and/or students from the two schools you instruct. The benefit of your experience and example would be instructive and helpful for all involved.

April 21-22, 2012, if your calendar allows. It's an open tournament*.

bdavis


*Quoted from the AHF website: "This is an Open tournament, which is structured to include a classical foil segment and a historical (rapier/small sword) segment. The Open format allows the participants to face other fencers of varying ability and experience."

[riceboy]

Riceboy,
You may not have read this entire thread. To loop this thread back to where it started, an invitation for the Redwood Coast Assault of Arms sent to the original poster (erik_blank) and his interest in the Association for Historical Fencing rules.

Yes I did read the thread, and but it seemed that many of those questions and issue had been successfully resolved. I posted primarily in response to the many comments that seemed to confuse classical/historical/SCA and HEMA types of fencing. I also wanted to counter the view, which seemed common that all classical fencers hated "the box". Finally, I wanted to point out that there are big splits within the classical fencing community itself and that one's experience with a particular group of classical fencers is not necessarily representative of the whole.

To bring it back to the questions about rules, I have read the AHF rules and have fenced under them. I think they're fine, and have no comments about that particular rules set. All things being equal, I'd prefer a longer strip length, but I actually like the rules as a whole. (and have enjoyed the tournaments in which they have been used).

I know of a showcase for your superior skill and experience as a Classical and Historical fencer. <stuff>

This seems to me to be intentionally sarcastic. If I misread your intent, then please ignore the following:

I specifically said in my post that I felt that none of the credentials listed were particularly impressive. I don't believe that I am a particularly gifted fencer. Indeed, the E09 implies to most of the residents of this forum that I'm something of a scrub.

I'm not entirely clear where the hostility came from, so I'm going to have to guess.

If you are responding to " I'm not a big fan of the very pretty, but tempo challenged fencing I've seen from the Martinez students I've encountered (with a few exceptions)."

I didn't say that I think it's bad, nor did I say that I think the people who are training in it are crappy fencers. What I said was that "I'm not a big fan" of it. It's not my cup of tea. Do I respect the guys who do it? of course. I recognize the work, effort and training that goes into their pursuit. All that said, _I_ personally don't like the way it looks and share some of the thoughs made by others on this forum concering the combat con video posted earlier. I am virtually certain that you would not like the way I fence either. To each his own.
Indeed, I can't stand watching modern saber. I'm an epeeist, this is kinda normal. Doesn't mean that I can't respect what they do. It's just not for me.

I want to highlight that not all classical fencers think alike, nor do we automatically like anything with the label "classical fencing".


If you are responding to the "not all crazy" section...

There is this mental image of the "rabid", electrical fencing is evil classical fencer. I wanted to emphatically counter that perception, and to impress upon readers that we are not all the same. If I went overboard, then I appologize.

April 21-22, 2012, if your calendar allows. It's an open tournament*.

As I am getting married less than a month from this date, it will be very difficult for me to make it up. I will, however see what I can do. (The last time I went to an away tournament I broke my finger. My fiance has threatened me with being locked in a padded box for the 2 months preceding the wedding)

It seems, in all honesty, that something keeps happening to prevent me from getting up there. Last year it was FMP exams for two of my friends, the year before I didn't find out until three weeks after the tournament. I do promise that I will make it up one of these years.

If I don't make it, there is a pretty decent chance that I will make it to CombatCon.

[SubSevn]

I just wanted to point out that the hilt assembly of the lancet is pretty badass looking. Kinda like a science fiction rapier.

They also cost almost a grand ($940 was the last quote I got from the guy who makes them), and currently they're only offered with a right handed assembly.

[Lancette™actual]

They also cost almost a grand ($940 was the last quote I got from the guy who makes them), and currently they're only offered with a right handed assembly.

The electric weapons you see in the videos are early prototypes but any electric epee can be modified for use in the sport left or right handed by replacing your normal epee pressure spring with the Lancet Fencing 4lbs conversion pressure spring that you can now purchase at http://lancetfencingstore.com/4lbssprings.aspx for $3.00 these springs are very durable and last a long time.

The 4lbs spring works to minimize incidental hits. It is not intended to make one hit harder, however, fencers in foil and epee competition and practice hit with more than 4lbs of force every day all the time. learn more at http://lancetfencing.wordpress.com/2...4/dry-fencing/

The Modern Rapier™ one sees at the LancetFencingStore is a super premium none electric weapon fitted with a Del Tin triangular rapier blade. This item is intended for those Modern Fencers who have always wanted a real rapier designed & balanced for modern techniques. It does retail for $940.00

[SubSevn]

The electric weapons you see in the videos are early prototypes but any electric epee can be modified for use in the sport left or right handed by replacing your normal epee pressure spring with the Lancet Fencing 4lbs conversion pressure spring that you can now purchase at http://lancetfencingstore.com/4lbssprings.aspx for $3.00 these springs are very durable and last a long time.

The 4lbs spring works to minimize incidental hits. It is not intended to make one hit harder, however, fencers in foil and epee competition and practice hit with more than 4lbs of force every day all the time. learn more at http://lancetfencing.wordpress.com/2...4/dry-fencing/

The Modern Rapier™ one sees at the LancetFencingStore is a super premium none electric weapon fitted with a Del Tin triangular rapier blade. This item is intended for those Modern Fencers who have always wanted a real rapier designed & balanced for modern techniques. It does retail for $940.00

I believe we've emailed before - it appears you've made some changes to your site since then!

Is that "Modern French Grip" truly legal for FIE fencing? Not to imply anything, I just know that there's a lot of discussion of the legality of grips that come with pommels when they're not simply a straight grip.

[downunder]

Is that "Modern French Grip" truly legal for FIE fencing?

Nope.

[Bingre]

(...) Lancet fencing is not in the same realm as "Classical fencing." It was started by modern fencers and is done by modern fencers. What we've been trying to do is expand upon the concepts present in modern sport fencing and move the sport, rather than the martial art, forward. (...)
Those of us who practice Lancet actively are a group of curious individuals, but we prefer to look forward to the future of sport fencing rather than backwards to classical and antiquated fencing as a martial art or sport.

…And yet, Thias, "Lancet Fencing" seems to be very close to what XVIII fencers would have envisioned as a martial art if they had, by then, masks and scoring boxes. The future of fencing lies still in its past. In fact, fencing makes no sense at all as a sport if it does not represent a modern competitive approach to competitive endeavors that originated in the use of nowadays obsolete technology — like it happens with horse races, sailing, kendo, archery, rowing, javelin, &c. We may improve the technology, but we must keep the original frame — otherwise the horse would be supplanted by a motorbike, the yacht by a motorboat, the katana by a machine gun, the bow by a sniper rifle, the oar by an helix, the javelin by a hand grenade.

The rules for foil fencing cannot be understood apart from their history: they were intended to codify a training weapon at a time when there was no protective headgear, nor apparatuses that could determine who hit first; at the same time, it did (albeit in a crude way) differentiate between effective thrusts (to the trunk) and comparatively harmless ones (to the arms and legs).

This might be a futile supposition of mine, but I do think that if masks and scoring boxes had existed at the time when the classic foil was invented and the smallsword still had actual defensive use (such as described by Domenico Angelo), modern foil would never have existed in its present form. Perhaps a lengthy blackout time, for example 500 ms, would be used to differentiate between a "marker" touch and a "subsequent" one, invalidating the latter. I can only guess — we're in the realm of "alternative History" now.

This said, I do hope that something like "lancet fencing" becomes adopted as a fourth weapon by fencing bodies, and the schism between "classical fencers" and "modern fencers" becomes somewhat narrower. We'd all profit from it.

[erooMynohtnA]

This might be a futile supposition of mine, but I do think that if masks and scoring boxes had existed at the time when the classic foil was invented and the smallsword still had actual defensive use (such as described by Domenico Angelo), modern foil would never have existed in its present form. Perhaps a lengthy blackout time, for example 500 ms, would be used to differentiate between a "marker" touch and a "subsequent" one, invalidating the latter. I can only guess — we're in the realm of "alternative History" now.

Maybe I am missing the point you're trying to make, but there is (and has been) a lockout timing in foil.

[Bonehead]

Maybe I am missing the point you're trying to make, but there is (and has been) a lockout timing in foil.

Remember how realistic it was when you had 500 ms to hit with the attack?

[Lancette™actual]

I believe we've emailed before - it appears you've made some changes to your site since then!

Is that "Modern French Grip" truly legal for FIE fencing? Not to imply anything, I just know that there's a lot of discussion of the legality of grips that come with pommels when they're not simply a straight grip.

These grips http://lancetfencingstore.com/modernrenchgripright.aspx have all been personally evaluated by a highly regarded S.E.M.I. Commission of the FIE official and he writes, "all of the grips conform to the requirements of the rules” and are “legal in any competition in the world.”

[Purple Fencer]

These grips http://lancetfencingstore.com/modernrenchgripright.aspx have all been personally evaluated by a highly regarded S.E.M.I. Commission of the FIE official and he writes, "all of the grips conform to the requirements of the rules” and are “legal in any competition in the world.”

Dos Santos?? Proof, please....or I would disallow that grip if I saw it.

[Bonehead]

These grips http://lancetfencingstore.com/modernrenchgripright.aspx have all been personally evaluated by a highly regarded S.E.M.I. Commission of the FIE official and he writes, "all of the grips conform to the requirements of the rules” and are “legal in any competition in the world.”

I notice that Lancette is trademarked. Would I allowed to produce and sell 'lancette' modern rapier equipment and run Lancette modern rapier events according to the lancette modern rapier rules as listed on your site without paying any sort of royalties?

[jkormann]

These grips http://lancetfencingstore.com/modernrenchgripright.aspx have all been personally evaluated by a highly regarded S.E.M.I. Commission of the FIE official and he writes, "all of the grips conform to the requirements of the rules” and are “legal in any competition in the world.”

I like the shape of the grip, but have to agree with PF on legality.

[dmil]

I have seen the modern french grip used throughout the Chicago land area and I believe they have been used at NACs with out any problems.

[Grasshopper]

The fatalities and amputations might be a bit disconcerting to those with gentler sensibilities.

Father?


http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz...8kqxo1_500.jpg