Oly Weightlifting and Fencing?

[ladyofshalott99]

Regarding squats - I had an interesting discussion yesterday with my PT about squats. She had me doing lunge squat lift with a bar on an angle (essentially a weight bar in a holder that has a ball joint at the bottom). I was doing a one arm press into squat and lunge and I automatically put my feet into a fencing lunge position. The following conversation then took place...
T: why are your feet like that?
M: Its more natural, its a fencing lunge.
T: No fencing lunges here honey, its a hardass lunge.
M: <bursts out laughing as her studio name is hardass and it was arse toning>

However, watch your knees. Its the one thing I have found when lifting that I have to be careful of. If I don't position my feet and knees correctly I can actually FEEL my tendons twitching.

1. If I could challenge you to a WoD to win your screen name, I would.

2. Ah, the "lunge". Isn't it weird when you go into a gym and their lunges are all slow, knee-to-ground, forward-facing steps? I love doing these compared to my CrossFit-mates. ...Except that it really brings home how weak your off-leg is compared to your weapon-side leg. What killed it last week was when we did a WARM UP at CF involving 3 rounds, 8 lunges each leg/8 overhead presses...holding a dumbbell that averages 30% of body weight IN EACH HAND (so you're holding 50% of your BW total). This is *okay* for weapon-leg, but absolutely killer for the trailing leg, specifically, the knee. If anything, I've found greater success in being mindful to focus on pushing up through the heel instead of midfoot-toes, but, admittedly, I find myself not doing that in everyday life (moving stuff at home, lifting 50# fencing bag to haul down house stairs and out to car, etc.) outside of the gym.

Directed at everyone--Speaking of knees/lifting: As compared to your non-fencing OLY-lift-mates, how are their knees as compared to yours/your club-mates? I've come across a few fencers at my CF (all who stopped because our town's fencing club status is next to non-existent; also, all epee fencers) who have the Rice Krispie-Knee thing going on, but I've not noticed this being an issue for the non-fencer contingent, regardless of age.

So...this makes me wonder, if it's not the actual weight-lifting that's killing knees..and I'm *assuming* it's not the front-faced non-fencing lunging that's causing OLY-lifters knee issues...is it the specific weight/impact mechanics of fencing that's the knee-killer, or is the weight-bearing nature of the activity? Where does proper form (in lifting/fencing) help preserve knees in this case, if at all?

[glowstix]

So...this makes me wonder, if it's not the actual weight-lifting that's killing knees..and I'm *assuming* it's not the front-faced non-fencing lunging that's causing OLY-lifters knee issues...is it the specific weight/impact mechanics of fencing that's the knee-killer, or is the weight-bearing nature of the activity? Where does proper form (in lifting/fencing) help preserve knees in this case, if at all?

FULL squats are better for your knees than anything else..problem is, VERY few people actually have the required flexibility for full squats (as in hamstrings completely covering the calves). you really have to "earn" your way into doing full squats (lots of stretching, ART and unilateral leg work will help). doing half squats and only going to parallel actually hurts your knees more (from my experience and that of others as well)....so FULL SQUATS for knee strength/preservation

As far as olympic lifting goes..meh. you have to be careful. these are HIGHLY technical lifts and one should not attempt them without an olympic lifting coach (as in, not even your average trainer at a gym knows these lifts as far as i can see). i had a coach teach me these and i'm still working on technique. they do give you explosive power but why spend extra days in the week learning these if you can spend the rest of the time fencing and getting better at that?? olympic lifting also stresses the knees because they're fast movements. its all about lifting as much weight as possible overhead and getting under the bar as fast as possible..nothing such as "too fast". i've found that the impact of hitting the ground after getting under does hurt the knees. in the end, i'd say they're fun lifts to learn but no worth it in the long run if fencing is your long term goal.

[Maggie]

FULL squats are better for your knees than anything else..

An ernest young crossfit trainer told me this, too. But when I ended up in physical therapy for my knees, the therapist strongly disagreed.

[ladyofshalott99]

An ernest young crossfit trainer told me this, too. But when I ended up in physical therapy for my knees, the therapist strongly disagreed.

It's certainly not *comfortable*, per se, but I guess it depends on the person. At my CF, we're trained to go below parallel, to the point that if we aren't squatting deep enough doing air squats, OHS, etc., that we have a "wall ball" (think 'puffy weighted medicine ball that's about 1.5 feet in diameter) positioned just behind us, and we must "tap" the gluteals to the wall ball for the squat to count--otherwise, No Rep.

I have noticed, additionally, that if you're not pushing up through the heels, that it can be tempting to rely more on the knees when pressing upward (especially while working through an overhead squat (squat with dumbells/barbells). The knees have a tendency to cave inward toward each other, and this is where I (personally) have to make a conscious effort at engaging my inner thighs to press outward and keep my knees a) in alignment with my toes, and b) keep from collapsing inward and causing injury. I suppose it's a common problem.

FULL squats are better for your knees than anything else..problem is, VERY few people actually have the required flexibility for full squats (as in hamstrings completely covering the calves). you really have to "earn" your way into doing full squats (lots of stretching, ART and unilateral leg work will help). doing half squats and only going to parallel actually hurts your knees more (from my experience and that of others as well)....so FULL SQUATS for knee strength/preservation

As far as olympic lifting goes..meh. you have to be careful. these are HIGHLY technical lifts and one should not attempt them without an olympic lifting coach (as in, not even your average trainer at a gym knows these lifts as far as i can see). i had a coach teach me these and i'm still working on technique. they do give you explosive power but why spend extra days in the week learning these if you can spend the rest of the time fencing and getting better at that?? olympic lifting also stresses the knees because they're fast movements. its all about lifting as much weight as possible overhead and getting under the bar as fast as possible..nothing such as "too fast". i've found that the impact of hitting the ground after getting under does hurt the knees. in the end, i'd say they're fun lifts to learn but no worth it in the long run if fencing is your long term goal.

The Head Coach at my CF was a competitive OLY lifter. Agreed, it's always better to learn from someone proficient in the field.

As for flexibility...honestly, is this really so much of an issue with fencers? For my part, once I'm warmed up with a bit of running, yoga stretching, etc., I'm good to go for fencing warm-up. Granted, that's about 20 minutes or so before suiting up. Post-CF or practice, I typically do splits with a full lean-over past my toes, backbends (Turkish Drop-style), etc., mostly to stretch out my hamstrings, inner thighs, and back. I haven't really known many fencers who have a problem with that, and I only do what I do now because I'm a 30-something who works a desk job for 10h straight/day, and as a result, I'm a bit stiff before practice.

Having said all that: I have the worst time on Class practice nights with my coach at this point. He's an older gentleman, and extremely old-school in his warm-ups, and requires everyone perform the same routines, progressed relatively quickly, for about 15 minutes before we start into footwork drills. The majority of this involves laps around a room that BARELY fits three strips, and almost exclusively "static" stretching otherwise. What I've personally found is this (whether because I'm coming directly from work or not) is absoutely terrible for my lunges/form for at least the first hour of practice, and I am not the only one who has experienced this issue. So my significant-other and I, and a few others who have realized this (especially with the lateral-movement 'knee killer' exercises, where one stretches out both legs horizontally, then moves laterally, alternately balancing on one heel or the other, to touch the toes) have begun to "rebel" (I guess?) and perform more "active" stretching during the warm-up, which I believe irritates my coach a bit.

I don't know. I guess between weights and fencing *drills*, you can do as much as you want, but it's still just physical conditioning. If you don't have the mental speed/clarity/cunning to win the bout, all that other stuff might just be wasted time. I suppose that's the difference between "fitness training" (crossfit, running, golf, anything where you're really only competing against yourself to get your best PR, etc.) and actual "sports" (engaging the mind/body to outthink/outmaneuver/triumph over an opponent).

[glowstix]

An ernest young crossfit trainer told me this, too. But when I ended up in physical therapy for my knees, the therapist strongly disagreed.

well, the fitness community is torn 50/50 on this one to be honest. in MY experience, they're better for the knees.