Role of the Judge during a bout

[Purple Fencer]

As for this cover call of yours, you say that both your ref and the hand judge didn't see the covering? First of all, how would the judge yelping have helped this at all?

The lack of an audible wasn't the issue....it was that the judge wasn't even TRYING to be in a position to see if there was covering or not...he wasn't doing the job he was asked to do. We weren't moving fast all of a sudden in a way he couldn't keep up...he was at the other end of the strip.

Secondly, you had both a ref and a judge watching for covering (after already calling him once for covering), and neither of them called it. Maybe they did miss something, but if both officials are watching for it and they don't see it, then officially it didn't happen. It's no different than insisting that it was your attack in prep. Actually it is slightly different, because in this case there are two [theoretically] impartial opinions against your biased opinion instead of just one.

Sounds like mostly sour grapes to me

His arm moved completely in front of his body...he could've touched his other arm...Jr didn't see it probably because the body was turned slightly away and hid the action...and the judge wasn't in position. Not sour grapes....fact.

[Bonehead]

The lack of an audible wasn't the issue....it was that the judge wasn't even TRYING to be in a position to see if there was covering or not...he wasn't doing the job he was asked to do. We weren't moving fast all of a sudden in a way he couldn't keep up...he was at the other end of the strip.

His arm moved completely in front of his body...he could've touched his other arm...Jr didn't see it probably because the body was turned slightly away and hid the action...and the judge wasn't in position. Not sour grapes....fact.

I don't mean to say that you didn't see what you saw, but your describing a situation where 2 people who were watching this action didn't see the cover. And since they are the officials, then the cover officially didn't happen. Most bouts only get one person. In many clubs the ref has to judge from the end of the piste - which is admittedly harder and ends up with more mistakes, but it's still possible.

Maybe your judge was biased, or stupid or something, and maybe there even is a case for moving with the action, but plenty of judges do just fine standing at the end of the piste.

I think your problem is that you just had bad officials.

[KD5MDK]

Oh yes you can, and you should, if upon consultation with the side judge (or the video ref, etc) it is determined that the sequence of actual events demands it. If you make a habit of it, people will start to question your control of the strip, but that's a separate problem.

And with that, my enthusiasm for this topic has been exhausted.

Cheers and happy yelping....

-p

No, once the bout has recommenced you cannot go back and change a previous call or issue a penalty. There is a tiny window where if the side judge is waving for the referee's attention or the fencer is standing there making the replay signal or something and the referee failed to perceive this in their hurry to move along and say "fence" where the it's appropriate to go back, but it's rare and tiny and requires the attempted attention getting to have started first.

[MBalderson]

No, once the bout has recommenced you cannot go back and change a previous call or issue a penalty. There is a tiny window where if the side judge is waving for the referee's attention or the fencer is standing there making the replay signal or something and the referee failed to perceive this in their hurry to move along and say "fence" where the it's appropriate to go back, but it's rare and tiny and requires the attempted attention getting to have started first.

I think peet interpreted "actions" to mean something like "FoL does advance lunge, gets parried, then remises" but steps off the strip with their advance. So, actions within the single touch.

[KD5MDK]

I think peet interpreted "actions" to mean something like "FoL does advance lunge, gets parried, then remises" but steps off the strip with their advance. So, actions within the single touch.

I'm sure you're correct and I have no fear peet would get this wrong in reality.

I was basing my comment on

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer
I'm talking about a covering call (for instance) being retroactively called after another touch has been fenced....

[Inquartata]

I think your problem is that you just had bad officials.

He ain't alone.

[peet]

I think peet interpreted "actions" to mean something like "FoL does advance lunge, gets parried, then remises" but steps off the strip with their advance. So, actions within the single touch.

Yeah, that; exactly. If Purp was talking about some other circumstance then he's even more guilty of bringing in irrelevant issues than I thought...

[Purple Fencer]

I think your problem is that you just had bad officials.

Michael D'Asaro Jr? You DID read that he was my ref in that bout, right???

[Bonehead]

Michael D'Asaro Jr? You DID read that he was my ref in that bout, right???

Okay, then either

A) good refs make mistakes. Suck it up, sour grapes and all that.

B) He didn't make a mistake and it wasn't covering.

C) He's actually not that good a ref.

Maybe your judge was the **** one, but the fact that there was a judge doesn't change anything. You had a good ref watching you, and looking for that action in particular (since he made the call before), and he didn't see it. You're arm judge also didn't see it, maybe's he's ****, but he wasn't the only person looking.

Bottom line is that this has nothing to do with yelping. It doesn't give good evidence that the judge should necessarily be closer than the end.

And most importantly, if you're complaining about losing a bout over a red (2nd yellow) card that both a good ref and another person didn't see while looking for it, you need to really think about the other 14 points the guy scored on you, and not pretend it's someone else's fault.

[erooMynohtnA]

I think your problem is that you just had bad officials.

Hi, this is fnet. Have you met PF yet? Let's just say his problems rarely originate externally.

[dberke]

And I'm saying that in reality -- especially at a division level event -- that sometimes does NOT happen...I've seen it, Peet, both as a spectator, and as a ref when asked to assign hand judges...I had to lay into one guy I'd asked to actually DO the job he'd accepted instead of sitting on his ass at the table. I was watching the fencers and didn't see that the guy had not done the job asked...he missed a covering call because of it (fortunately, I saw it).

As for the yelping, I'm not saying the judge should let out a sabeur-like shriek....certainly not call a halt (unless there's a safety issue like some moron walking directly across the strip behind the fencers...seen that, too). But if I'm directing and have a hand judge, I want some audio cue that the infraction was seen if the judge is out of my line of sight because I'm watching the FENCERS and not the judge.

I've given a "hup" and raised my hand when I've seen a floor hit or covering...it's never resulted in fencer confusion...because the ref HEARD me and called the halt....that's what it's for.

I don't know if you realize it, but there's a rather predictable pattern to all of your posts. You describe some kind of situation where the referee/hand judge (often yourself) exercised poor judgement or just did a bad job in general. You then come up with some kind of oddball way of applying the rules which partially compensates for the bad refereeing. And yet, your approach is pretty consistently the wrong way to handle things.

What's even more curious is that when you have bunch of very experienced referees telling you what the proper procedure is, or how a particular situation would be handled at a national/international competition, you proceed to argue with them and justify your position. Eventually you trot out the "at the Division level..." excuse, as if the situation should be handled differently there.

Do you realize that the key to avoiding all of these problems is to listen to these experienced referees and learn what should be done, rather than making it up as you go along? Take their knowledge and, rather than arguing, learn from it and spread that knowledge to others in your Division. Teach people how it should be done based on what those refs do (not what you think should be done.) Over time, people at the Division level will learn the proper procedure, and things will run more smoothly ... and the problems you see at the Division level will decrease.

What's the point of discussing these sorts of things, if not to learn? Or are these discussions just a vehicle for telling another anecdote where you're the starring character?

Dan

[IanSerotkin]

...and for his next trick, Purp will lecture Dan about the proper way to build fencing tournament software. (At the Division level, of course.)

[KD5MDK]

...and for his next trick, Purp will lecture Dan about the proper way to build fencing tournament software. (At the Division level, of course.)

It should have an index cards feature. Sometimes it's just easier to do it that way on the Divisional level.