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Thread: End of Period Gamesmanship - You make the call

  1. #1
    That Guy Craig's Avatar
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    End of Period Gamesmanship - You make the call

    Earlier this season at a local event the following happened:

    Last few seconds of the period, bout score was tied. Fencer X stands up and starts to salute. Fencer Y reciprocates. Fencer X then launches a fleche attack. Fencer X lands the touch, which scores.

    Two questions for general amusement:

    1. How would you react to this as a fencer.

    2. How would you react to this as a referee.

  2. #2
    Senior Member fencerchica's Avatar
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    Ugh, I'd long to deliver the G4 black, but as I sadly lack the mindreading abilities to actually prove my strong suspicion of Fencer X's intent to commit an offence against sportsmanship (and given Fencer Y's having been such a freaking imbecile) I would let the touch stand.

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    Senior Member trafl926's Avatar
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    Funny story: I was at Reno, fencing Div1A, and was facing an fnet employee in pools. It was 4-4 and with about 5 or 6 seconds left I backed off and I might have saluted(can't remember). He does the same but then with about 1 second on the clock, he runs and fleches at me and I manage to counter attack for the one light for me. I thought it was hilarious.

    To answer the questions:

    1. As a fencer I dislike it but the onus is on me to react to anything.
    2. As a ref, I dislike it but would allow it.

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    Senior Member epeemike81's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craig View Post
    Earlier this season at a local event the following happened:

    Last few seconds of the period, bout score was tied. Fencer X stands up and starts to salute. Fencer Y reciprocates. Fencer X then launches a fleche attack. Fencer X lands the touch, which scores.

    Two questions for general amusement:

    1. How would you react to this as a fencer.

    2. How would you react to this as a referee.
    Haven't we had this thread before?

    anyway, my answers are:
    1) I step out of distance before lowering my guard during fencing.

    2) I'd award the touch.
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    Senior Member swordwench's Avatar
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    What Mike said, with the addition of thinking to myself in both situtions, "Wow, X, you're a dick".

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    I'm surprised that worked. Always fence until the halt.

    Also salutes happen with the mask off in my mind.
    Bonehead

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    For both #1 and #2 my first reaction is why is Fencer X launching any kind of attack before they're told to fence? That's the info we're missing here. Any time a bout has been tied and I'm saluting someone, it's been about the same time I'm told en garde . There's never been an opportunity to launch an attack because the point hasn't yet started until I'm told to fence or allez.

    As a fencer, basically I'd find it strange, etiquette-wise, if someone saluted me after I'm told to fence. I might salute in return or I might not. If I did, and someone launched an attack, I'd be really TICKED at the person but couldn't object to the point. Same thing as a ref - if I tell the fencers to fence, their job is to do just that... they can dance if they want to, but if someone scores a touche, I'm likely to give it to them even though I'd disagree on the tactic. If it happened more than once, I'd likely start calling unsportsmanlike conduct.
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  8. #8
    Roo
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    I'm not sure- You don't specify if the bout director gave the instruction to fence. Assuming that the instruction had indeed been given... As a director I could see calling that either way. On the one hand I'd say that I had clearly given the instruction to "fence" to both fencers- I could easily see a failure to fence at that time as a failure/refusal to follow a director's instruction (and could be cardable in itself). If I thought that the touched fencer REALLY was unprepared, I could see calling a halt as the attacking fencer began their attack (as a safety stoppage), but if I hesitated, then there wouldn't have been a stoppage... If fencers want to salute after I say "fence", that's all on them.

    As a fencer, It would depend on just when the order to fence was given. If I was in mid-salute at the instruction to fence, I'd be really ticked off at the director for calling a start when I was clearly unprepared and not in an "on guard" position (saluting not being "on guard"). It would have been the director's poor judgement to restart the assault while a fencer is not in an "on guard" position, and I'd likely have an advocate speak to the bout committee.

    If the saluting occurred AFTER the command to fence, I'd have no choice other than to view it as a skillful attack after a devious (albeit an impolite) misdirection, but I don't think I could see it as being all that different from feinting to draw a parry and create an open line. I'd think it was my own stupid fault for not defending myself when I was supposed to be fencing.

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    where does 'salute in the last point' thing comes from?

    I have only seen it in the US

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    Posting Hound Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardian04 View Post
    For both #1 and #2 my first reaction is why is Fencer X launching any kind of attack before they're told to fence? That's the info we're missing here. Any time a bout has been tied and I'm saluting someone, it's been about the same time I'm told en garde . There's never been an opportunity to launch an attack because the point hasn't yet started until I'm told to fence or allez.

    As a fencer, basically I'd find it strange, etiquette-wise, if someone saluted me after I'm told to fence. I might salute in return or I might not. If I did, and someone launched an attack, I'd be really TICKED at the person but couldn't object to the point. Same thing as a ref - if I tell the fencers to fence, their job is to do just that... they can dance if they want to, but if someone scores a touche, I'm likely to give it to them even though I'd disagree on the tactic. If it happened more than once, I'd likely start calling unsportsmanlike conduct.
    I think X's tactic would be to pretend the clock had run out and Y simply didn't hear the ref call halt.

    This DID happen in an epee bout I was directing last year...Bill Gelnaw was X. The only diff was Y RAISED his mask and Bill pulled his shot and didn't land it (great reaction there).

    I kinda laid into Y....he's an experienced fencer and certainly knows better.

    I didn't card Bill because I didn't think there was anything illegal about the move....DUMB on Y's part, but nothing wrong on Bill's.

    I had shifted my attention to Bill just after he'd saluted and didn't see Y raise his mask. Had Y's mask remained down and Bill landed, I probably would've awarded the touch.

    Had Bill NOT pulled short and landed on Y after Y's mask was up, I don't know what I would've done. It should've been called a halt when the mask came up due to the safety concern, but since I hadn't seen it...
    Need fencing equipment? See me at H.O.M. Fencing Supply

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    Quote Originally Posted by 22hansen22 View Post
    where does 'salute in the last point' thing comes from?

    I have only seen it in the US
    I've seen it in some international bouts, myself, seems like a polite/sporting thing to do IMO. Shows respect to and from both competitors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Fencer View Post
    I think X's tactic would be to pretend the clock had run out and Y simply didn't hear the ref call halt.

    This DID happen in an epee bout I was directing last year...Bill Gelnaw was X. The only diff was Y RAISED his mask and Bill pulled his shot and didn't land it (great reaction there).

    I kinda laid into Y....he's an experienced fencer and certainly knows better.

    I didn't card Bill because I didn't think there was anything illegal about the move....DUMB on Y's part, but nothing wrong on Bill's.

    I had shifted my attention to Bill just after he'd saluted and didn't see Y raise his mask. Had Y's mask remained down and Bill landed, I probably would've awarded the touch.

    Had Bill NOT pulled short and landed on Y after Y's mask was up, I don't know what I would've done. It should've been called a halt when the mask came up due to the safety concern, but since I hadn't seen it...
    So Y raised his mask before the halt?
    Bonehead

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    Senior Member swordwench's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 22hansen22 View Post
    where does 'salute in the last point' thing comes from?

    I have only seen it in the US
    Guess this discussion was before your time. *sigh*

    Saluting for La Belle Touche

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    Senior Member Emfuser's Avatar
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    "Attack a la douche... touch."

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    Quote Originally Posted by trafl926 View Post
    Funny story: I was at Reno, fencing Div1A, and was facing an fnet employee in pools. It was 4-4 and with about 5 or 6 seconds left I backed off and I might have saluted(can't remember). He does the same but then with about 1 second on the clock, he runs and fleches at me and I manage to counter attack for the one light for me. I thought it was hilarious.

    To answer the questions:

    1. As a fencer I dislike it but the onus is on me to react to anything.
    2. As a ref, I dislike it but would allow it.
    Having refereed this bout, I agree.

    No one saluted, just backed way off each other, from what I can remember.

    *okay, I split the pool with someone, and forget who did this particular bout, but still*
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    Senior Member tkexi991's Avatar
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    It's garbage, but it's Y's fault. I don't like wasting the last few seconds of a period just because my opponent is tired of fencing for now. If I was Y, I would have fleched first.
    Well, The Rock says you didn't get that touch because your roo-dee-poo director missed the call. No, The Rock says you didn't get the touch because you absolutely suck!
    http://coletrainfencing.blogspot.com

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    Senior Member badpenny's Avatar
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    This would have been better if fencer X would have Tebowed, then while fencer Y starts to pray, X hits him in the foot.

    Just riffing here but I think this would have been awesome.
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    Posting Hound Purple Fencer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonehead View Post
    So Y raised his mask before the halt?
    Yes...but I didn't see it because I'd shifted my gaze to Bill. Had I seen the mask come up, I would've called halt immediately out of safety concerns.
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    Keep fencing til the halt!

    I managed to pull off something similar before. ~5 seconds left in a period. Enguarde, ready, fence. I back up a step, and opponent backs up too and looks at the clock. The moment he looks at the clock, I rush forward for the point with 1 sec remaining.

    If he hadn't taken a long look at the clock, I probably would not have done anything. But the "Seize the Moment" instinct in me just flared out when I saw it.

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    That Guy Craig's Avatar
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    The general consensus at the tourney was that Fencer X technically scored a valid touch, but was a jerk and brought shame (and beatdowns) onto members of their team.

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