Help--Tournament Question!

[fiddlemom]

Today was my son's first tournament and he was quite upset. He doesn't mind losing points or even so much about the winning and certainly not about medals, but cares very deeply about "fair", fencing good bouts and doing his best. What upset him was that the referee was coaching his opponents and not counting points that my son actually won. (He has been fencing for 7 years and knows far better than I do on what counts and what doesn't. He is always the first to admit losing a point.) There were a few other things as well...but those were the two things that upset him the most.

My question is--is this normal? How often do you encounter it where the kids win (according to a parent who was explaining non-chalantly to his son exactly how the organizers of the tournament wanted them to win--as a matter of a fact, the parent picked correctly who was going to win and so far as I could tell the order of places even before the direct elimination started.) What's the point of fencing if they already know who is going to win and make sure it happens? What's the point of fencing if the winners are always the kids who study with the organizers of the event? (Is this always the case?!)

My son enjoys having the opportunity to fence others and is very gracious. He is wanting to take his fencing to the next level with competitions and I would like to support him, but is the entire world of as ugly as what we saw today?! Is this the norm in fencing competitions? How do I best prepare him? (Aside from, "well, babe, life just ain't fair"!)

[Mac A. Bee]

... the referee was coaching his opponents and not counting points that my son actually won...the parent picked correctly who was going to win and so far as I could tell the order of places even before the direct elimination started...How do I best prepare him?

We would need a transcription of the referee's remarks to determine if same were appropriate. What your son interpreted as "coaching" might in fact be phrase analysis. As to "handicapping the ponies", if someone is very familiar with the competitive roster and it is widely dispersed, i.e. abilities differ greatly, then it could be possible to predict a tournament's final standings. As to preparation, may I recommend that your son read, as a minimum, the penalty chart? If he is more ambitious, then please have him (and you as well) read the rules - if only the General and your weapon's sections. When traveling to tournaments he could psych himself up (and also learn) by watching higher-classified fencers' videos. For pure inspiration, you can't beat the Olympic and World Cup videos.

If you have a chance, if there's a national-level referee at your next tournament, sit in a conversation between the referee (who will be happy to do so) and your son.

Good luck! Maybe we can encourage you to join us on the strip!!

[Goldgar]

It is unacceptable for a referee to coach *anyone* during the competition, much less one of the fencers in the bout he is refereeing. It is equally unacceptable for the referee to "not count" points actually won in accordance with the rules, always bearing in mind that there are circumstances defined in the rules that may require the referee to annul a touch. Referees do make mistakes, of course, and that can result in a point being awarded to the wrong fencer, but that's completely different from the sort of unethical conduct you're describing.

Whether your son's referee was actually doing these things is impossible to say. Such referee misconduct is very rare in my experience, though unfortunately not unheard of. How old is your son? I know many fencers, especially young ones, who don't actually know the rules well enough to tell whether they are being cheated or not. And as Mac A. Bee has pointed out, it would be a mistake to interpret the simple reconstruction of a phrase as coaching.

This is not to say that you couldn't have encountered a stacked competition. I've never seen one, but I wouldn't be completely shocked to find that they exist. They are rare, however, not least because people simply don't go to competitions where they don't think they'll get a fair chance.

[Inquartata]

Actual cheating like that, to the extent that it occurs, is usually done more subtly than that. Which may account for their perceived rarity. Or not.

Although I understand that there is at least one referee in California who---well, this thread. Hope that's not where your son was fencing.

[fiddlemom]

I am glad to hear that this is not the prevalent behaviour of tournaments. Thankfully, the experience was not as bad as with the referee in CA! I would like to give the referee the benefit of the doubt, but according to my husband who has finally returned home and was able to watch the videos, my son was correct: he should not only should have won, but the other kid should have gotten a yellow card. Prior to this experience, I would have let my son decide whether or not to do another tournament, but I think he shouldn't quit because of one bad experience and have insisted that we do one more--we'll make it a vacation and do something fun--and he'll do the competition as a side. (There are so many wonderful suggestions here on the forum--I look forward to trying some of them and helping set him up for a more positive experience next time.) His coach had told us to travel and not bother with local tournaments, but I had not understood what he meant by that--I suppose between his professional courtesy and my total ignorance on the subject that I really needed a less subtle suggestion. I feel very bad that I put my son in this situation, but on the other hand, some good things have come out of it--I found a wonderful resource (a big thanks to the host of this forum!) and have read quite a bit and hopefully have a better understanding. Hopefully, as well, we can help encourage him to not think in terms of points, which can apparently be awarded or not awarded according to human error (whether malicious, egotistical, simple error or incompetence) or from his ego ("winning" or "losing"), but about all of those wonderful life skills that fencing can be good for--mental and physical conditioning: focus, concentration, agility, stamina, eye-hand coordination, endurance, perseverance, self-motivation, graciousness under pressure...and dealing with humans.

We are thinking of traveling to Chicago. Does anyone have any suggestions? (i.e. good tournament to participate in for saber)

..."handicapping the ponies" (great term, btw, I hadn't heard it) in conjunction with not making certain calls or giving penalties in order to influence outcome...I guess I had never considered that tournaments could be about stoking egos. If that's the only way those kids can win, then I guess we have to feel sorry for them because they are being set up for huge disappointments later!

[Mac A. Bee]

...the videos, my son was correct: he should not only should have won, but the other kid should have gotten a yellow card...I would have let my son decide whether or not to do another tournament...His coach had told us to travel and not bother with local tournaments

A better approach would be for your son to review the video with his coach, who could explain what happened. As to tournament participation decisions, I don't understand not competing locally *before* traveling, unless your son is collecting gold medals. Your son's coach may recommend, but ultimately it's *your* decision.

[fiddlemom]

...it is not an issue of medals, rather of having fair play.
He did go over the video. The calls were apparently blatantly incorrect. I think, just as the responses here suggest, the assumption was that my son wouldn't know better and they could make whatever calls they wanted. Learning experience...I will also never again be the one to take my son to this sort of thing without my husband. I hope to not put son in this kind of situation again...

[Kyle.Mezzi]

So, allow me to play devils advocate here...but...

As a coach, I can tell you that first and foremost, the most important thing is that you son had fun. He needs to understand that there is more to the experience than whether or not the referee made the right call. Use the video to look at more than just who the referee awards the points to. Also, when you argue (or better, discuss...) a call with a referee, the intention should never be to get the call over turned by the referee. It should be to open the referee's eyes, and win the next point. There are avenues (filing an appeal with the bout committee) for situations where a referee blatantly misapplies a rule, but you are never going to get a call over turned based on what the referee saw happen, or didn't see happen.

As a referee, I'll tell you that we are all human, and we do make mistakes. Whether it was blatantly cheating (like coaching a student you are refereeing, while you are refereeing), we need to see the video to give you a consensus opinion, and even then, it matters little. If a referee is asked for clarification of why they made the call, that is not coaching.

In short, there is a lot to learn about this sport, so one bad tournament should not taint his opinion, and I hope you encourage him to give it a second try, hopefully at another venue if what you said regarding the referee is true. But remember, life isn't fair, neither are sports. The challenge is overcoming all of those factors working against you; you opponent, the referee, distractions, the list goes on.

Good luck!

Also, I think we could like to take a look at that video, if you are willing to post it to youtube and share the link with us...

[the ancient one]

"...Also, I think we could like to take a look at that video, if you are willing to post it to youtube and share the link with us...

This is your best option to get useful feedback.

[fdad]

After "fencing for 7 years" he is going to his first tournament?
After his first tournament he is an expert in what to expect from referees during a tournament?

Recommendation: Save the tape, fence in many more tournaments, then watch the tape and decide whether the calls were right or wrong.

[the ancient one]

If I taught someone to fence 1970 style saber and then sent them to a tournament, they would come back bitterly disappointed and report (interpret) things much as you have described.

So here is another possibility:

There are coaches you can find who are simply stuck somewhere in the past, have not kept their own training current and do not realize (or just ignore) their deficiencies. Worse still, among them, some will proclaim loudly and even convincingly, that everyone else is wrong.

I am not saying this is your case. I certainly hope not, but it does happen.

[fiddlemom]

I am sorry, but I am confused...are you implying that it was only in the 70's that these things were not allowed?
It is very tempting to post the video, but frankly I don't have written consent and am not aiming to cause harm. Tournament is over, lessons learned, try again better prepared.

[the ancient one]

Perhaps we are talking about 2 different things. I am not presuming what you already take for fact.

The 70's comment was meant only as an illustration of how reasonable people (in this example a student versus the ref) can come to very different interpretations of the same event. In this hypothetical example, the harm comes from the coach who is selling a faulty product to a consumer who cannot yet judge the quality on their own.

All we can be sure of in your case is that you want the best for your son. As 3rd party non-observers we need to be cautious and not recklessly validate or invalidate your opinion.

Definitely do try a tournament in another venue and get another data point. Find some experienced competitors that are not associated with either your coach or the previous tournament and get some feedback.

[Isitlegal]

Fiddlemom, I felt compelled to reply because I could have easily written your post myself. My son has been fencing several years now. We are in an area that has a very limited amount of fencing. I've seen everything you describe and then some. I've seen so many kids leave the sport because of it as well. It's really sad. The rules are hard enough for a young player to understand, when they are selectively enforced and obvious calls are given bizarre explanations favoring the other player, it's no wonder kids get frustrated.

Perhaps fencers who come from areas where there are a number of clubs to choose from don't experience this. Having a number of experienced coaches present at a tournament and/or trained refs not affiliated with the club tends to keep this sort of behavior in check. While the problems we have experienced at the very local level have been numerous, the more we've branched out to tournaments sponsored by other entities, the less this has happened. In fact, I can't think of any instance beyond our local level where we left a tournament thinking a ref had deliberately not done right by my son. Sure, there have been what we felt were bad calls at the time and even later on tape, but they were mistakes or subjective and not part of a larger agenda.

My advice would be to treat the local tournaments as practice and a chance to fence players other than the ones in your club. Also, try to get his coach to go with him. It's harder for scoring nonsense to take place under the watchful eyes of a coach. Start going to the larger tournaments. My son recently attended his first NAC. We both had a great time, he fenced well, learned a lot, talked me into all sorts of expensive stuff and we are really glad we stuck through the local nonsense to get to that level.

[Conrad]

There will be other tournaments and other referees. By far, most tournaments and most referees are fair. Usually, in the case of disagreement, the referee is actually right. That being said, sometimes they are not. Referees are human. For the most part they are not highly paid, if at all, and their job is thankless.

I can remember one referee who called a bout incorrectly against my son point after point at an SYC -- and my son lost the bout by one point. So it did make a difference. This ref even redcarded my son for the first offense (covering) when a yellow card was appropriate. We called our coach after the bout, and he encouraged us to ask the referee why the calls went the way they did.

We did approach the referee with great respect and genuine gratitude for his service at the SYC. He was young, a high schooler. And he very politely told us he'd made some mistakes. It was clear the mistakes were genuine (rather than biased attempts to throw the bout as my son initially suspected). My son and I were both grateful for his candor. We were also very grateful this referee had volunteered to ref the tournament because without refs there would be no tournaments.

Our take was that there would be other tournaments and other chances to win. My son already had his points, and was fencing to learn anyway. In the end, he did learn a couple of really good lessons. First to be grateful to the people who volunteer so that you can fence. Second that they are human and make genuine mistakes. And third, perspective goes a long way. Our children watch us carefully at these times and they learn by our example.

Finally, when my son started to gripe I said "Don't like the calls? Fence better." It's hard (but not impossible) to get a call against single lights. Perhaps this doesn't speak directly to saber but the attitude of gratitude applies to every weapon.

[Mac A. Bee]

....This ref even redcarded my son for the first offense (covering) when a yellow card was appropriate.

If an incorrect card is thrown for an offence, your fencer may appeal the incorrect application of a rule to the ref, and failing that, to the Bout Committee. Be aware that rather than covering, your son's offence may have been "Use of Unarmed Hand/Arm", which is an immediate Red Card. Also, if your son had a Yellow Card for a bout check-in equipment failure of which you were unaware, then a Red Card would be appropriate.

Part of your son's training should be learning, as a minimum, the Penalty Chart, available both in the Athlete's Handbook and the Rules.

[fencerwallet]

But remember, life isn't fair, neither are sports. The challenge is overcoming all of those factors working against you; you opponent, the referee, distractions, the list goes on.

Exactly. This is good advice at all levels. You have to learn to use your head situationally. My kid once ended a 15-13 bout in Poland against the local club's #1 with a flunge, which he hardly ever does/shows. Afterward, he said he felt he had to take that aggressive chance at that time because if he let the bout go to 14-14 he believed, the way it had gone to that point, that he would have probably lost on a subjective call. So, such experiences are absolutely all part of a fencer's development process.

[Conrad]

If an incorrect card is thrown for an offence, your fencer may appeal the incorrect application of a rule to the ref, and failing that, to the Bout Committee. .

No doubt. But my son was 8 or 9 at the time. Arguing over a call was beyond him. And having me argue with a tournament official may have taken what was an overall positive experience for my son and turned it into a negative one. My son took away a much more important lesson. Referees are a variable of the bout, just as is the opponent. Most times referees are right. Sometimes, despite best efforts, a referee is wrong. In either case, referees deserve the fencer's courtesy and appreciation. That's about the best you can do for most 8 year olds.

Referees are all too often unappreciated and blamed. Roll with it. There will be other days, other bouts.

Also, fence better. That's the bottom line.

[Mac A. Bee]

...my son was 8 or 9 at the time...having me argue with a tournament official may have taken what was an overall positive experience for my son and turned it into a negative one.

Only the fencer can appeal, or for that matter, interact with the ref. You have no status.

[Conrad]

Only the fencer can appeal, or for that matter, interact with the ref. You have no status.

You've raised my curiosity here. Off point, I know....But I've heard differing opinions on this from USFA officials. Perhaps the distinction is entirely pedantic since a parent can tell their child what to say. The differing opinion being, of coures that anywhere in the US (even the fencing strip), parents can always speak for their minor children.