Fencing Comparison Over a Time Period-1928-1942

[cplmontana]

Hi,

I think everyone can agree that fencing has changed drastically over the past 15-20 years. I wasn't around to see the changes, but I've heard enough and seen enough to come to that conclusion.

Now I present two videos. One from 1928, and the other from 1942. I neither own nor uploaded these videos.

1928
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4nXadZ1PEg

1942
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtUeF...eature=related

There is a drastic difference in the way the fencers move. Any fencing historians know what changed over those years? Perhaps the invention of the electric foil?

I'm aware this is a rather open-ended question.

Thanks in advance,
cplmontana

[Purple Fencer]

Hi,

I think everyone can agree that fencing has changed drastically over the past 15-20 years. I wasn't around to see the changes, but I've heard enough and seen enough to come to that conclusion.

Now I present two videos. One from 1928, and the other from 1942. I neither own nor uploaded these videos.

1928
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4nXadZ1PEg

1942
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtUeF...eature=related

There is a drastic difference in the way the fencers move. Any fencing historians know what changed over those years? Perhaps the invention of the electric foil?

I'm aware this is a rather open-ended question.

Thanks in advance,
cplmontana

Electric foil didn't come along until 1956...so it probably wasn't that.

[Peach]

Electric foil didn't come along until 1956...so it probably wasn't that.

Especially since all of the first and much of the second are sabre.

[cplmontana]

@Peach
But at that time, most, if not all of the fencers fenced all three weapons. Wouldn't it make sense that there would be some adapting?

I guess my question is: What happened between 1928 and 1942.

For example, since 2005, foil has changed due to timing changes, leading to fewer flicks and a greater emphasis on remise and counterattack.

[Jason]

I guess my question is: What happened between 1928 and 1942.

What is the relevance of those particular dates? Why not 1928 and 2011? 1984 and 2008? 1665 and 1804?

[fdad]

What is the relevance of those particular dates? Why not 1928 and 2011? 1984 and 2008? 1665 and 1804?

He is still hunting for the video from 1665.

[D'Art]

To be fair Jason, couldn't you just ask Inq about your particular dates? I thought he'd just be hitting geriatric age by 1665...

[piste off]

@Peach
But at that time, most, if not all of the fencers fenced all three weapons. Wouldn't it make sense that there would be some adapting?

I guess my question is: What happened between 1928 and 1942.

For example, since 2005, foil has changed due to timing changes, leading to fewer flicks and a greater emphasis on remise and counterattack.

When did the pistol grip come in vogue? That had to have changed things a bit. The Nadi's and their cohort did not use them, but were they popular in the latter period you specified?

Dal Zotto changed things quite a bit in 1976, didn't he?

Of course, the above is for foil. Saber and epee are quite different and have had different changes over the years relevant to them.

[the ancient one]

Christian D'Oriola 1953.

Check out the action at around 50 seconds.

[Peach]

@Peach
But at that time, most, if not all of the fencers fenced all three weapons. Wouldn't it make sense that there would be some adapting?

I guess my question is: What happened between 1928 and 1942.

For example, since 2005, foil has changed due to timing changes, leading to fewer flicks and a greater emphasis on remise and counterattack.

Since sabre did not become electric until substantially later, and since every sabre fencer I've known from that period made pronounced (and often loud and painful) hits in order to influence the referees, I doubt it would have been affected by the electrification of foil, even if fencers were doing two weapons.

[keith]

Christian D'Oriola 1953.

Check out the action at around 50 seconds.

In 1952 they changed the blink rate for the side judges. It nearly killed the sport.

[Inquartata]

I guess my question is: What happened between 1928 and 1942.

Brother Jerome imprisoned the Devil in Wolfring Castle in 1918. In 1928 David Ellington released him. Things went downhill after that.

[edew]

I think the fact that they're doing a round-robin table of about 15 or so might suggest that they don't go all out, or if they had, they're now quite pooped by the time the film was made.

Also, their leg strength might not be so strong, so if you can't go fast enough to overpower the hand speed, it would be suicide to bother.

Third is that the hits have to be very clear as it's visual judging, although midway through the first video showed several "double" hits (not clear who got the touch), which suggested that clarity of action may not necessarily translate to clarity of right of way.

[Allex]

I think the only valid comparisons from the video can be in Saber - in 1928 video - to start there are a lot of errors as far as the written commentaries go :

Hungary won the team Saber and not Italy
http://www.sports-reference.com/olym...abre-team.html
DeVecchi only fenced for Italy in 1932 games, etc.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arturo_De_Vecchi

the footage they show early, as far as, I can tell from 1928 photos and ancient epee, Gladius, and Schlager7 are welcome to correct me, is from the deciding 16th Final bout between Petschauer and Puliti

http://www.sports-reference.com/olym...inal-pool.html

so you are talking 4 years of work and innumerable subplots hanging on a 5 touch match.

I think that much pressure makes every touch more calculated and tense,
if you take a look at the 1956 Melbourne video , saber starts around 4.25



hopefully you will agree that fencing in it is closer to the 1928 Olympic footage, than the 1942 event - which BTW Hungarians also won. They did not have a single fencer from the 1928 Gold Medal Winners on that team, it was a pretty much an exhibition event - thus no pressure, in comparison; and the footage shows German fencers.

OTOH I did notice in 1936 footage (different clip) somewhat more bladework, less footwork, less patience, less "absence of the blade",and more fleches in Saber - but they were showing German fencers, as they did in the 1942 clip you are mentioning.
One conclusion that I had was that the Hungarian school by the way of Italy - primarily led by Santelli and Racoszy - placed a lot of emphasis on patience, absence of the blade, proper cut and the direction + location of it (there is a lot on the web about Santelli revolutionizing saber following Radaelli and Pessina, with detailed description). It seems like Hungarian saber got quicker by 1932 with Gerevich (who was influenced by Bogen, again only in my opinion) , Piller, and Kabos - but not as impatient as the German stuff from 1942.

Again IMHO - current saber is closer to the 1928 footage in terms of tactics than to the 1942 one, which shows that everything is pretty much cyclical. The best saber lesson footage (hand speed wise) I saw on the web, was taken by the 1924 Olympic Champion Sandor Posta.