Team vs. Individual competition

[Kat]

Just wondering...

Which do you prefer to fence in; team or individual competitions?

Do you get caught up in the atmosphere of the team comp., or do you prefer to work alone?

Thanks.

[pammie003]

I like team more, but I'm probably in the minority with that. I think that I am simply more comfortable with the format because, fencing on the university circuit, it's what I am more used to fencing.

[angriff]

Definitely individual events... because I'd plunged my team into irreparable trouble on several occasions previously This trend was bucked recently.. but given a choice, I'd still rather fence individual events.

[Lemberg]

I like both, but team is really fun, and I always seem to do well on the team day, probly b/c of the fact that there are two other guys who can help you out if you screw up really helps you and adds a bit mor econfidence and freedom of movement.

[a517dogg]

depends if its usfa team or ncaa team. i'm not a fan of ncaa team, but i like fencing usfa team. i dont nkow if i would like it that much if i got to do i as much as if ence individual though.

[BB Boom Boom]

Is there a difference in the rules for NCAA team and USFA team competitions? If so, where would I find the NCAA rules?
Thanks

[AaronK]

NCAA fencing uses a "dual meet" format. You have 3 fencers (and/or subs) and the other guy has 3 fencers. You fence a total of 9 bouts (everyone on your team fences everyone on thier team). The winner of the majority of bouts is the winner. Bouts are 5-touches/3 minutes. So a team wins by winning 5-4, 6-3, 7-2, 8-1 or 9-0. Indicators are moot, and each bout is separate. Colleges keep track of the bouts won to determine who won (possible 54-0). So you could have a loosing women's foil team 1-8 but the men's saber team makes up for it 9-0, which comes out to 10-8.
NCAA championships are different. They are rounds of pools that seed into rounds of pools. All 5 touch bouts. Regional qualifiers are the same.
There are other college team formats such as the IFA championship format. You have a team of 3, the "A", "B" and "C" slots. All the A's fence in one pool, all the B's in another and the C's in the last. The top school is the one with the most W/L overall. They also make an individual tournament by taking the top 9/5/2 from the A/B/C pools to make a tournament of 16.
I haven't fenced in the NCAA, but I coached 2 NCAA teams (UCSD and Vassar) and think that 45 touch relays would be better (it would be a slight advantage to schools with 1 strong fencer and 2 weak fencers, while it is better to have the NCAA format for 2 strong fencers and 1 weak fencer- at UCSD we had a women's epee team that won the conferance with only 2 fencers...meaning there was an automatic forfeit of 3 bouts. Risky!)

[Kat]

I think teams events can really boost your performance sometimes, knowing that you're not just fencing for yourself. If your team mates get behind you and cheer you on it can be very exciting and sometimes I fence better in a team.

Then again, being declared the sole winner isn't bad either.

I don't really have a preference because I suppose it depends on how you're fencing and at what level too.

[Inquartata]

Individual. Call me selfish, but I took up fencing to fence, not to watch others fence. Though I'll do team if it means more fencing...in addition to, not in lieu of, individual.

[Peach]

I've had a heck of a lot of fun fencing team the couple of times we've done it. In fact, I'd say team is more fun. That's probably because there's no chance any team I would fence on would ever have a chance of winning . . . the last time I did it was with another veteran who had horrible tendonitis, an awed teenager at her first Summer Nationals, and a three-weapon fencer whose sabre style was peculiar if effective. We were blown away when we won our first match, and considered our loss in the second round a victory when they had to bring in their A fencer to beat us.

Individual is more work, and the loss--when I lose--is all my own. But it feels more real to me.

[Chris]

Originally posted by AaronK
NCAA fencing uses a "dual meet" format...

NCAA championships are different... They are rounds of pools that seed into rounds of pools. All 5 touch bouts. Regional qualifiers are the same...

I haven't fenced in the NCAA, but I coached 2 NCAA teams (UCSD and Vassar) and think that 45 touch relays would be better ...

Iwould like to point out that FIE and USFA team format USED to be the Bout score format of 3 on 3 for 9 bouts, until they changed it in the early 90's. (IIRC)

I think you may well see the NCAA schools adopt the realy format: It certainly leaves a little more room for spectator excitement.

Additionally, I would like to point out that, over the years, the NCAA has employed several different formats: for a good number of years, up through 1983, the format was 4 large preliminary pools, with 6 advancing from each pool, to a final pool of 24 (which took 2 more days!) Personally, I liked this format concept, although, I think a final pool of 16, or 18 might have been a little more workable.

in 1984, they decreased the number of fencer furtherm and went to a straight pool format (I don't know how long they did this); currently, (IIRC) there is some pool fencing, and top 4 fence-off DE.

IMHO, if you REALLY want to attract more spectators, and things a little more sensible to them, an open scoring format would be the way to go: each bout, or round, would last for a fixed, preset amount of time (started and stopped, like we do now) - probably one minute, and the winner is the one who scores the most*, just like many/most other sport games.

*(Yes, I imagine this could result in some pretty high scores: most fencers I know can handle the math!)

Of course, I am not saying I want this, (although I'd like to try, or see someone try it) only that it seems to be more consistent with stated objectives of FIE regarding spectators, 'passivity' and the 'watchability' of fencing.

[edew]

Chris,

Actually, the USFA (and the FIE as well) used to run 4 on 4 first to nine victories team matches prior to moving to the current 45-point relay format.

I believe the relay format was changed as of the 1996 Olympics.

The former format was certainly not as exciting as the current relay format. It doesn't require that all your fencers be intimately involved in the conclusion of the match. In the current relay format, every touch counts, even the one-point touch by my third best fencer against the number 1 guy on the opposing team.

In the former format, you might beat your opponent 5-0 or 5-4, but as long as you are sure that your team can make the nine victories, that indicator isn't that important.

Yesterday, I was refereeing the team championships in our Northern California Division. I can see how hyped up the fencers can get when fencing in the team events. These guys basically would fence OK in the individuals, and then the team part sparks their desire and they're out there like gangbusters. Everyone can see how much more excited fencers are.

[Chris]

Originally posted by edew
Chris,

Actually, the USFA (and the FIE as well) used to run 4 on 4 first to nine victories team matches prior to moving to the current 45-point relay format.

I believe the relay format was changed as of the 1996 Olympics.

(snip)

Well, I can't remember everything!

Actually, I fenced team foil in the '84 Nationals, but was also fencing NCAA team that year; men fenced 3 on 3; women (fencing only foil at the time) fenced 4 on 4, so things got a little blurry...

Wouldn't the FIE have gone to realy format in '94, in advance of the olympic year - it seems most changes are implemented that way...

All I remember is that our division screwed it up the first year!



Fence on!

[edew]

Should be, but not always. I did say that the team format was changed (my guess) as of the 96 Olympics, which might include one or two seasons prior to the 96 Olympics.

On the other than, the change in the signal lights were implemented on January of 2000, just prior to the 2000 Olympics. All referees were given a rush job to acclimate themselves to the changed side of lights.

The NCAAs that year did not use the new changed side of lights and that compounded the confusion a bit more, as some people were just getting used to the new lights when they had to go back.

[Lemberg]

Team bouts are great but perhaps not during the club practice... Did that in our club last friday and got a little bit too competitive (which is granted as most of our fencers are in their mid to late teens) till the point that some people haven't yet made up and are still holding grudges, not talking about the coach who is still nagging about a "wasted practice"

[135711]

i think team fencing makes you perform better because you can't let the team down. i only fenced team once, they asked me to join them years ago i was the weak link, new fencer, but they needed the extra, i promised i wouldn't blow it for them, i fenced real hard, they cheered when i got a few points for them, then they benched me. i was very happy with the whole thing.

[pammie003]

We always fence in a relay to 45, and I have to say, there's nothing quite like the rush you get from the first time that you make up points for your team (especially when you pull them into the lead). The feeling of actually contributing, rather than hindering as in the beginning of my fencing career, is what made me get hooked on team competitions.