Mercy: good or bad?

[thyme_daniels]

I was recently fencing in a competition, and in direct eliminations I knocked out a girl 15 to 1. She is very nice, but I just did what I felt I needed to do: fence my best. After the bout another fencer in my club came up to me and told me that I shouldn't have beaten her 15-1, it was too harsh, and that I should have given her a few touches. I asked why, and he said that it would make her feel good if she scored a few on me. By the way, she actually didn't care that she lost the bout, but I questioned the idea of mercy in a bout.
Personally, I think that if I allow someone to gain a touch on me unfairly, and by unfairly I mean my merely "giving" the touch to them, that it isn't really good for anyone. I wouldn't be trying my hardest, and they wouldn't have gotten the point from their actual skill in fencing. In a tournament, fencing isn't about making the other person feel better about losing, or creating an illusion that they are better fencers than they actually are, but it is about trying your hardest and having fun. At least, that is my opinon. What do you think? Should a fencer show mercy in a competition?

[Scott Allen Abf]

Whenever I fence in competition I show no mercy, even if it is clear that I will win by an overwhelming margin. Neither do I expect any show of mercy from my opponents.

Whenever I fence in practice against someone over which I have a clear advantage I automatically throttle it back and go into teaching mode.

The only exception is the practice just before a tournament. In that one I'll show no mercy!

Scott Allen Abfalter
He-Who-Could-Use-A-Few-Mercy-Points-Given-To-Him-Now-And-Again

[Danzan]

I don't really see the point (no pun intended). Competitions aren't there to make the other person feel good. But perhaps I'm just cold-hearted.

And speaking personally - my last competition was horrible. I started off not being able to do anything right, and it went rapidly downhill from there. But it would have been even worse if I had known or suspected that some of the very few touches I scored that day were because someone showed me "mercy."

Besides, if you want to look at the issue from a different angle, technically "showing mercy" is a violation of t.88: "competitors must fence to the utmost of their ability ... without giving away touches..." I don't know if anyone would actually call that (I'd be interested to hear from people with more experience) but it's there.

[Joe biebel]

I have thought a lot about giving touches for "mercy." I don't think I'll ever know what the best thing to do is. I know what the rules say about "defending your chances" but, there are actually cases, in tournaments, where I'm not sure it's a bad thing. Especially in a DE match. A stragegic miss, may help to "save face" for someone who is weaker or having a real bad day. A 15-0 score gets you into the next round as well as 15-8. A few touches changes no ones placement or result. Unlike practice, there may be family and friends there cheering. No need to rub their nose in it.

At our club, I'm the guy that shows no mercy. I make it clear to any beginners or children that I fence, that I will not let them touch me if I can help. I tell them that there may be some people in our club that will give them touches to make them feel better, but if they get any touches on me, or beat me, that they can feel confident that they have earned those touches. I'm sort of the "reality check."

Occasionally, we will have a couple of really strong fencers at practice, that I simply can not beat on even my best days. I get a huge kick out of being outfenced. I enjoy it. I learn from it. I hope none of the "hotshot" kids I fence will ever take pity on me.

Joe B.

[Peach]

Sunday I won a DE bout 15-1 and didn't show my opponent a bit of "mercy." My opponent is a good enough fencer that if I had laid off the least little bit she would have figured out she could beat me after all. Which she can. Just not this time.

I fenced a young girl in the Pomme de Terre a couple of years ago and afterwards someone said to me, only half joking, that I was bad because I had beaten up on this "little kid," and perhaps I should have let have a few touches. I said, "She'll get plenty of time to beat me in the future. I'm not cutting her any breaks." Sure enough, she's nationally competitive and can beat me without even thinking about it now, whereas I'm a little older and no faster.

That doesn't mean I fence to my "utmost ability" at all tournaments. Most of the tournaments I go to are strictly for practice. I've had opponents beat me in local tournaments who I could beat if I fenced to my "utmost ability." I only fence that hard a couple of times a year, frankly, and only at tournaments which matter to me, because otherwise I'd have more bits falling off my body than there already are. That doesn't mean I'm being merciful. It just means I'm not at my best.

My philosophy in the matter of fencing to your utmost at all tournaments is:

"That which does not kill me . . .

. . . gives me long-term injuries."

[Purple Fencer]

I flatly refuse to give a touch to anyone in competition...it's insulting to the other fencer...like I feel they can only score on me if I let them do so. Besides, anyone with a modicum of brains can figure out when it's a"gimmie."

In practice, like with my sabre students (yes...I have a small class now!), I may not fence as hard as I would in comp, but I still do NOT give a touch away. My main student asked me to go 15 touches in our traditional end-of-lesson sparring yesterday...I lost 15-14, and she earned all 15 of her touches...some because I got stupid, some because she got lucky with a ba;de placement, and some because she's actually learned the things I'm trying to teach her!

[Tomas N]

DE's I fence to minimize my expended energy. If I'm racking up points on the other person, I'm not going to do explosive lunges or fancy moves. Just get it over with as efficiently as possible.

Pools are more complicated, as indicators are sometimes critical, yet I don't want to exhaust myself before I have to.

Tomas N

[Zelda]

Nope, no way, nadda, not a hope in hades of me showing mercy in a competition. If you are competing (at any level) you have to expect to lose as much as you may win. If your opponent is having an off day, why should you pander to their sensibilites and give them a hit or two. I'd rather know I lost a bout horribly due to my own incompetence then sit wondering how I got the few hits I did and why it didnt work more!

[Sildar]

I wouldn't throw a bout out of mercy, and in pools I'll do what it takes to get my indicators up. Once it's the DEs though, there's no reason to smash someone into the ground just because you can. Beat them, certainly, but as Joe said there's no bonus for beating someone 15-0. If it's someone I know can deal with losing 15-0 (or who has done the same to me in the past!), I won't give them any touches. If it's a kid in their first competition, I get nothing out of humiliating them; that's just uncalled for.

The only exception to that is if I'm fencing someone who's deliberately rude, cruel, or vindictive. If they quit fencing, it's better for everyone else.

[Dav3ey]

First -- and I'm sure that some rules maven can cite me chapter and verse -- I think that "giving away touches" is contrary to the rules.

Second, there's a HUGE difference between beating your opponent 15-1 and being a gracious and pleasant winner and beating your opponent 15-1 and rubbing the person's nose in it.

Whenever I step on the mat in a competition, I bring my "A Game." It's a frame of mind. If I win 15-1, so be it. If I lose 15-1, so be it.

What I don't do is decide to try out new "material" or try to draw the person into a long lunge so that I can give the coup de grace with a flick to the back. (Part of the reason I have no patience for professional basketball is the over-use of the slam dunk -- it has a purpose and that purpose in not to show off or demoralize.)

Excessive yelling, fist shaking and barbaric yawps? If it's truly spontaneous, fine. If it's some sort of "message", it stupid, distracting to both competitors and generally idiotic.

But in a bout that is being won 12-0 or 13-1, far more behavior falls into this category. Don't show your opponent up. Think like a baseball player -- when you hit a dinger, you don't show-boat and watch it go. You look down and round the bases.

Pride in defeat; humility in victory. Practice that and the score is wholy irrelevant.

[veeco]

I have seen several situations and I have been in several situations myself where "showing mercy" actually reversed the outcome of the bout.

Don't show mercy at any time. Whether you are fencing a 10 year old kid who's in his first competition or the current national champ.

If you are leading in the score, do whatever it takes to make the difference even bigger. It's not rubbing it in someone's nose, and it's not trying to humiliate someone in front of their family, friends, whatever. That's just the way sports in general should be played.

You will have plenty of time to socialize and be nice after the bout is over, but as far as I am concerned, I don't show mercy anymore, don't try new things when I am up 10-4 in a competition. I have done that way too many times and it cost me the bout. The other person scored a couple of touches in a row, and next thing I knew, the score was even and I had to fight to win.

Get that win in quickly and relax before the next bout while chatting with your opponent and pointing out what his/her pitfalls were. That's much more constructive, and still a sportsmanlike behavior I think.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

I would tend to disagree with the idea that mercy is bad. It is, however, contextual.

I'm not a great enough fencer that I can afford to surrender points in most circumstances. But if I'm fencing a newbie, or a younger fencer who is clearly just starting, I see no point in beating them 15-1 just because I can.

Does that mean you should stand there like a target dummy and allow free hits? Of course not. But if you're fencing someone who seems like they are enjoying this new sport, why not give them some encouragment? Let's say it's 10-0 or 10-1, and you've scored everytime you made a direct attack, or made a distance parry/riposte. You could do it five more times, but what would be the point? Instead, why not try some other actions, maybe give them some invitations, or after parrying, not do an immediate riposte, but let them attack one more time? Make them earn the points, but at least give them the opportunity to feel that something went right in the bout.

Points should never be given up in the pools, but in the DE's, it can be another deal. I've had opportunites to watch both my kids at the NAC level when fencing opponents clearly below their level. In several cases, especially in the younger age brackets, it was clear that their opponents were hopelessly over-matched. They backed off a bit and gave them a few opportunities to score. In one particularly memorable match, my daughter thought she had scored, and lowered her blade and started to turn around. The little girl she was fencing paid attention, noticed the light, and scored the point (with my daughter doing a little innocent playacting). For a long time after the match, she was all lit up, bubbling to anyone who would listen how she had scored such a point on the prohibitive favorite. The fact that she had lost her first and only DE 5-0, 5-1 was completely forgotten.

Same meet, another kid in a younger bracket, who shall remain nameless. First DE against an overmatched opponent, this boy kept doing giant flying flunges and delivering thunderous whacks, even though he was winning virtually unscored on. He would then celebrate each point with an in-your-face shriek. Think his opponent took home anything positive from THAT bout?

[veeco]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
I'm not a great enough fencer that I can afford to surrender points in most circumstances. But if I'm fencing a newbie, or a younger fencer who is clearly just starting, I see no point in beating them 15-1 just because I can.

rest for the next bout. Time to focus on the next and stronger opponent coming up. More time to socialize with your vanquished foe.

But if you're fencing someone who seems like they are enjoying this new sport, why not give them some encouragment? Let's say it's 10-0 or 10-1, and you've scored everytime you made a direct attack, or made a distance parry/riposte. You could do it five more times, but what would be the point? Instead, why not try some other actions, maybe give them some invitations, or after parrying, not do an immediate riposte, but let them attack one more time? Make them earn the points, but at least give them the opportunity to feel that something went right in the bout.

In the course of which you are basically letting yourself pick bad habits which might come and haunt you in the next bouts. You need to stay sharp and that means getting every touch you can.
Also, I don't think that letting someone hit you is giving them encouragement.

If you want to encourage someone, go at the end of the bout, shake your opponent's hand and tell them "good bout". Or you say see I hit you there like this, but that's because you were doing that, and then I noticed you changed and started doing that, which was good, but I was able to see that you were going to change to this action because...

Same meet, another kid in a younger bracket, who shall remain nameless. First DE against an overmatched opponent, this boy kept doing giant flying flunges and delivering thunderous whacks, even though he was winning virtually unscored on. He would then celebrate each point with an in-your-face shriek. Think his opponent took home anything positive from THAT bout?

I hope that he took home a strong desire to kick that guy's booty and that next he will be the one doing the in your face shrieks ;-). More seriously, this is an extreme example which basically means that this young man needs more education in sportsmanlike behavior, and while I do have a problem with this kind of attitude, I don't have a problem with the fact that he won that bout by a very large margin and did not let his opponent score on him.

[a517dogg]

In any DE, even if I'm clearly better than my opponent, I'll always fence for the first 7 or 8 touches, to get up 7-0, good for confidence, etc. After that I relax and save energy, but if i continue to get touches, sucks for the other person.

[Dav3ey]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Let's say it's 10-0 or 10-1, and you've scored everytime you made a direct attack, or made a distance parry/riposte. You could do it five more times, but what would be the point?

Simplicity is elegant.
Simplicity is low-risk.
Simplicity is the lesson this person needs.
Simplicity doesn't show the opponent up.

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
Make them earn the points, but at least give them the opportunity to feel that something went right in the bout.

The "earning" comes in practice with hard work. If your opponent hasn't learned to parry a straight attack, well....

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
he was winning virtually unscored on. He would then celebrate each point with an in-your-face shriek.

Clearly an animal. This is a guy who walks through life periodically noticing things that suggest he's not the only person in the world -- and ignoring them. A walking id.
Part of me wants to say that there's a silver lining, knowing that at least animal boy is happy, flunging and winning -- but then I remember that this kind of Pollyanna BS really ticks me off. He needs someone to kick his *** and then tell him off.

[Inquartata]

Mercy, as in giving away touches---never. OTOH, if the dispaity in abilities is wide enough, I may not fence with the same intensity as I will against a stronger competitor. Lots of fencers, myself among them, have several "gears", and there's no point in using 5th against a novice: I'll conserve my energy for the #3 seed who's next in my DE path....at my age I need every ounce of reserve I can get.

As for providing encouragement, that's not really my job, and I inasmuch as I did not put much stock in that sort of encouragement when I was a novice---in fact, if it was obvious that was what was going on I resented it---I don't think I ought to be providing it for others now. If your passion for fencing can't survive a few trouncings as a novice why are you fencing in the first place?

[sallearmourer]

Fencing is Combat their a winner and a loser. Show no mercy. I had a opperent who had me down 10 to 0 and he decided to qutoe show mercy I beat him 15 to 10. I teach my kids that once on the strip it's just them and the person they are fencing wheather it there younger brother or sister team mate you fence to win. I have seen my kids comeback from sure defeat to victory because they don't quite. You relax against them they will take and run with it.


Tim

[Gav]

Nope, on the piste no mercy. I cut a little slack when I'm bouting at my local club but that's because I believe it's important to:[list=1]
[*]encourage the beginners,[*]I'm usually working on 'something' so its entirely possible that it isn't working! I'll be losing points however I'll stick at it while I work on it even though I know that it would easy to up a gear and win.[/list=1]

In competition it's important to always fence your best even if its a 13 year old kid (the minimum age for Opens in the UK is 13).

If my opponent is female and pretty - I might lose for other reasons ...

[AaronK]

I want to play devil's advocate.
I don't know if I would call it "mercy" but there are times where I feel that winning isn't as importatnt as giving someone a positive fencing experience. I don't throw touches away on purpose, but there are some athletes that you will run into that you simply outclass in every way. Why expend 100% of your fencing when you can give someone a good bout at 70%? 50%? or even 10%? And I'm talking about limiting your game and fencing your best 10%, rather than saving energy or using your "trick-shot that beats the newbies" 10%. In these bouts I might come closer to a 15-7 result than a 15-1 result, but was I giving my opponent touches or challenging myself by making it harder to score (for me)?
Division tournaments are no longer competitions for me, they are practice. It's not that I win every one, and definitely not that the competition is always easy. My focus has been on larger competitions and so I may not be doing myself a service if I throw too much emotional energy into a "practice" bout. If I win or lose in my division what has it cost me? $20 including gas and the gatorade I bought at the convienience store?
I still fence in my local division, but I find that sectional tournaments and NACs are much better experience to improve my fencing. In order to give a fair shake to some of my opponents I have to limit my game to one or two things at 100%. If I fenced all out at them I could win easily, but is that really going to do anything for me? There are those opponents that expect me to beat them 15-1, and they are frustrated if I "give" them touches. But on the other hand, it's not so rewarding to beat someone 15-5 (even at nationals- and I have).
If both fencers can come away with a positive experience, enjoying the esprit d'combat- win or lose- that's my ideal. I don't like fencing opponent's that I can beat so easily (I feel like I am bullying someone). So probably I'll never get a top 8 result...no killer instinct.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Inquartata
As for providing encouragement, that's not really my job (snip) If your passion for fencing can't survive a few trouncings as a novice why are you fencing in the first place?

In the case of newbies...I think providing encouragement should be a job for ALL of us, especially in the case of younger fencers who aren't lucky enough to be learning fencing in a club with a large population of similar age opponents.

Put yourself in the place of an 10-13 year old who has a fascination with fencing. Unfortunately, his/her club primarily has adults in it.

In the first half dozen bouts, this proto-fencer meets up with six ham handed "no mercy" opponents, and gets ruthlessly cut to pieces, with matching welts on both shoulders. Are they going to think: "What a cool, lifelong sport I've chosen!" or "This blows, I'm going home to play Nintendo until my fingers bleed!"?

Nurturing a newby is not a bad thing. That fresh faced youngster coming on guard in front of you could become one of our rising stars.