Parry posisitions

[Aoife]

Are septime and octave supinated? Because I've been taught that they're pronated, but I highly suspect otherwise (is it tierce and lower quarte which are pronated low-line parries?).

Thanks again.

Aoife

[Mergs]

Yes.

[pkt]

Ah, the parries or the POSITIONS.

(In the case of a right-handed fencer.)

1. Prime (1st, say 'prim' – old French) is when you draw your sword from the scabbard which you wear on your left side. Hand in pronation - palm down. Almost like kissing the back of your hand.

2. Seconde (2nd) is the one immediately to the right of Prime. Both Prime & Seconde are parries against low-line attacks. Hand still in pronation.

3. Tierce (3rd) drop your sword hand from Seconde and you'll have 3rd. The hand is still in pronation (palm down).

4. Quarte (4th) is left of Tierce protecting the chest. Hand in semi-pronation. Make sure you meet your opponent's blade with an edge no matter which weapon.

5. In FOIL and EPEE Quinte (5th) is, according to E.D. Morton in "A~Z of Fencing":
"...a rather LOW QUARTE, but the hand is PRONATED and the point angulated outwards. It protects the lower part of the target and is really an instinctive and not entirely effective alternative to Septime."
Quinte in sabre is the parry against head cuts or foil flicks. The sword-hand is raised on the fencer's right and the blade, just above the level of the head, is parallel to the ground.

6. Drop down the hand from Quinte and you'll have Sixte (6th). 6th is like 3rd, but with the palm up - supination - at thumb-out 45-degree angle.

7. Septime (7th) under Quarte and

8. Octave (8th) under Sixte - These two parries are used, like Prime and Seconde, against low-line attacks. Both of these are with hand in supination (palm up) as opposed to prime & Seconde.

9. Neuvieme: (9th) an unconventional parry sometimes described as blade behind the back, pointing down (a variant of octave), other times similar to elevated Sixte [use this against foil flicks to one's right].

PK

[Sildar]

It depends upon the school; I've heard of some Italian schools that teach the parries 1, 2, 3, +4 in full supination. My Maestro teaches septime with the hand in partial pronation, like in carte. Some places still teach guard in tierce as the normal high outside guard. Many teachers advise slightly different positions, so find someone who fences really really well and ask them, or find a good book and read what they advise.

[a517dogg]

are septime and octave the same as seven and eight?

neither seven or eight are pronated. two is basically eight pronated, first is like you put your forearm parallel to the ground but high enough to be able to look under it, and your hand pronated and blade pointing down, so that you can riposte.

[intellium]

can you clarify more on the 3's and 5's, especially the palm and wrist positions?

[Black Jeebus]

We were taught that four and six were the upper suppinated parries (with four being the inside and six the outside).

[pkt]

Originally posted by Aoife
Are septime and octave supinated? Because I've been taught that they're pronated, but I highly suspect otherwise (is it tierce and lower quarte which are pronated low-line parries?).

Thanks again.

Aoife

1st off, let's get pronation and supination clear:
~ pronation, from "prone" is where the hand's in a palm-DOWN position.
~ supination, from "supine" is where the hand's in a palm-UP position.

So to elaborate on Mergs' answer, it should be:
1. "Yes"; and

2. You've been either taught wrongly or you remembered wrongly;

3a. "Yes, TIERCE is in the same position as sixte but the hand is in PRONATION". Just look at the sabreur on-guard, that's tierce. It is virtually obsolete in foil - one can be easily disarmed, esp. when one uses a French grip, by a hit on the top of the blade.

3b. LOW QUARTE in FOIL and EPEE is Quinte according to E.D. Moton in "A~Z of Fencing":
"Quinte is a rather LOW QUARTE, but the hand is PRONATED and the point angulated outwards. It protects the lower part of the target and is really an instincitve and not entirely effective alternative to Septime."

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Sildar
It depends upon the school; I've heard of some Italian schools that teach the parries 1, 2, 3, +4 in full supination. My Maestro teaches septime with the hand in partial pronation, like in carte. Some places still teach guard in tierce as the normal high outside guard. Many teachers advise slightly different positions, so find someone who fences really really well and ask them, or find a good book and read what they advise.

According to E.D.Morton, in the 16th & 17th centuries there was a profusion of names: diff't schools used diff't names for the same things. This went into as late as the 18th Century. Then the French standardised them. Quinte, Septime and Octave were the last positions to receive tehir modern names.

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by a517dogg
are septime and octave the same as seven and eight?

Yes and yes.

Originally posted by a517dogg
neither seven or eight are pronated. two is basically eight pronated, first is like you put your forearm parallel to the ground but high enough to be able to look under it, and your hand pronated and blade pointing down, so that you can riposte.

1. Correct: septime & octave are both pronated.
2. Wrong re seconde. Arm is in diff't positions protecting diff't part of the target.
3. re Prime, more or less.

Pls. read my descriptions. I've amended it re Quinte.

Remember the PROPER, historical names. They are the ones used by people speaking languages other than English. Try not to reinvent the wheel.

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by intellium
can you clarify more on the 3's and 5's, especially the palm and wrist positions?

I've amended my original post, pls read it again.

3. Tierce (3rd) drop your sword hand from Seconde and you'll have 3rd. The hand is still in pronation (palm down).

5. In FOIL and EPEE Quinte (5th) is, according to E.D. Morton in "A~Z of Fencing":
"...a rather LOW QUARTE, but the hand is PRONATED and the point angulated outwards. It protects the lower part of the target and is really an instinctive and not entirely effective alternative to Septime."
Quinte in sabre is the parry against head cuts or foil flicks. The sword-hand is raised on the fencer's right and the blade, just above the level of the head, is parallel to the ground.

It helps to know which weapon you're talking about.

PK

[pkt]

Originally posted by Black Jeebus
We were taught that four and six were the upper suppinated parries (with four being the inside and six the outside).

Correct X4.

Sixte & Quarte should be at breast level - for the sake of those readers who are ladies, ahem, of certain age, we should amend that last 2 words to "chest level" - hence the 'upper' descriptive. Any attack that comes below that should be replied with Septime & Octave. Try to avoid using Quinte in foil or epee.

["Breast level" was used by E.D.Morton, Anglicised saying. "Knickers" vs "breeches". "Rubber" vs "eraser". ad nauseum.]

PK