Becoming a Good Sabre Fencer.

[sabre saber]

This is an obscure set of questions but:

In you experience, could a sabreur who has been taking lessons for about only a year compete with one who has been training for three years.

How much do private lessons help improve the fencer.

How long does it take to improve to place good (top eight) in events like junior olympic and divII/III qualifiers.

What are the steps to becoming a good sabre fencer?

[whtouche]

It all depends on many different things. Your committment to fencing, how much you're willing to work, the quality of your coach etc.
When you ask if it's possible for someone fencing 1 year to compete against someone with 3 years of experience there are alot of things to consider. Like each fencers committment, natural ability, how much they spend. If the person with 3 years fences significantly less than the person with 1 year, then it's obviously likely.
But everyone is different. Some people at fencing prodigies with little instruction, others require personal attention every step.
In my area a sabre fencer with only, I believe 3 years of experience rose to become argueably the best sabre fencer in the division, or at least one of them, surpassing people with many more years of experience than he.
I suppose what Im saying is that anything is possible, and you shouldnt get discouraged if you don't achieve the results you think you should. There's always more to learn.
Find yourself a knowledeable coach you trust, work closely with him. I've found competing to be a useful tool in maturing as a fencer, you learn alot at tournaments and they can sometimes be as useful as private lessons, depending on your ability to observe and absorb information.

[Inquartata]

That about says it all.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by sabre saber
In your experience, could a sabreur who has been taking lessons for about only a year compete with one who has been training for three years.

One of the over-used truisms of competition is that you only improve while practicing and competing against better opponents. However; there is some validity to the concept. A big part of improving your fencing is watching and learning techniques and tactics used by better fencers against you. As such, you'll pick up your game faster working with people who have more experience. When you are hit by a move or tactic you didn't understand in practice...don't be afraid to ask what it was they just did, or what you were doing that made you vulnerable to their attack.

So, can you compete against someone with 2 extra years of fencing? Absolutely. Will you win? Maybe not at first. But before long, the difference will be minimal, if you work hard at improving your game.

Originally posted by sabre saber
How much do private lessons help improve the fencer..

A lot, if you have a good coach. Now the trick is to take what you learned from the coach and use it over and over in practice until you have the technique or the concept down. Not only will this ingrain the lesson into your repetoire of moves, it will gladden the heart of your coach...who will see his/her efforts being used by the student. All too often at clubs, the coach will give a lesson--say in second intentions: feint, step back, parry-riposte--only to watch the student go bouting and never use the techinique ONCE the rest of the night...instead, relying solely on old skills in an attempt to win their bouts. Practice bouting is for improving your skills, not counting coup.

We have a wonderful lady at our club who is well up on the national points list. She can beat almost everyone in the club under tournament conditions, yet she frequently loses practice bouts to people of lesser ability. Why? She is always working on specific actions, trying to perfect them under match conditions. She might do the same action ten times in a ten-point bout...but is trying to refine the action, and make it successful, even if the opponent sees it coming.

Originally posted by sabre saber
How long does it take to improve to place good (top eight) in events like junior olympic and divII/III qualifiers.

This is a tougher one. It depends on your age, your natural athletic ability, and your brain. Fencing is a sport where the brain is the most important muscle. Learn to use it, just like you learn to lunge. What you are shooting for is to make your opponent react to YOU, not the other way around. There's a reason they call this sport "physical chess." Practice thinking a couple of moves ahead, rather than just a single, make or break action.

Go to every competition you can. If you do well, remember the things that worked, and build on them. If you don't do as well, DO NOT be discouraged. Analyze what went wrong, and above all, take the time to watch the fencers you think are better than you. Watch how they move, watch the pattern of how they employ their bag of fencing tricks. Get a picture in your mind of things you want to try, and then work on them. Talk with your coach after any bout he/she has witnessed, and discuss what to do next time.

Originally posted by sabre saber
What are the steps to becoming a good sabre fencer?

As the old saw goes: "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"
Practice, practice, practice.
Try these steps:
1. Do your footwork. Do it until you want to scream, until your legs burn. Do it in front of a mirror, and watch your hand position and your body position. Analyze yourself for weaknesses like an opponent would.
2. Drill. Find a partner and work every drill your coach has given you. Do it slowly, and concentrate on making the action correct first, work on speed later.
3. Learn distance. Practice distance. Embrace distance. Sabre is a ROW game...if your opponent attacks and misses...it's your right of riposte, baby! And your footwork is the key to using distance.
4. Take your lessons and apply them, as noted above.
5. Practice hard. Maximize your time in the club. If you fence a stronger opponent, learn from the bout. If you are fencing a weaker opponent, don't just make five straight attacks and shake hands, take the opportunity to practice second intentions, retreats, PILs, feints, anything you've been learning.
6. Hold your sabre softly, use the ends of your fingers to cut lightly and quickly. If you've got a death grip on the sabre and use it like a meat cleaver, everything is slower (and your opponents will wince when it's time to fence you!)
7. Practice multiple actions. If you attack, think of what you're going to do if it misses, if it's parried. Embrace the convoluted rules of right of way. Too often we see less experienced fencers just repeatedly remise a missed attack and lose the point. So work on thinking how you're going to regain the right of way every time you lose it.
8. Remember that fencing may not be an instant gratification sport for you, but it will return the effort you put into it.
9. Never take sabre advice from an epee fencer.

Good luck, and always ask questions. That's how you learn.

[Adam]

Well.. I just started fencing (saber) a week ago and I've only had 2 lessons so far, annnddd I have a bunch of questions.

1. What is the kind of "style" you want to fight with saber (ie, speed agrressive or defensive and stuff like that, and compared to the foil and epee) . Also what kind of body charachteristics are good for saber (im 16, about 6 feet tall and reallllyy skinny, and I THINK i am quick)

2. Right of way thing. From what I understand so far. If one person makes an attack, the other one HAS to parry or else he looses the point... whatever i have no idea

3. whats the most popular fencing weapon (saber epee or foil)

4. This is an important one I dont really understand. Using your fingers to make quick attacks. My instructor keeps talking about using your fingers. He said fingers are fasteste, then wrist, then arm. But the thing I dont get is, how do you move the blad with just your fingers other than just like rolling it around in your hand (with makes your grip really weak and you would probobly just drop the weapon if they hit it then.)..... so basically what Im saying is how do you use your fingers to move the blade quickly.

5. A good SABER fencing book for Complete Beginners (that covers stuff like how to hold the blade and footwork and basics like that)

6. ... I have more questions I just cant thing of them now

[oiuyt]

1a) Sabre, especially at lower levels is all about agression and attacking. It's HARD to defend in sabre, make your opponent do the hard work. Eventually the fencers start getting better and actually can defend at which point it becomes a more balanced game that still has a greater emphasis on attacking than the other two weapons.

1b) you can fence sabre successfully with any body type. Traditional stereotypes have the sabre fencers as shortish, squat, and strong. If you watch at the upper levels these days, especially as you start to look at international fencers there are an awful lot of 6'+ sabre fencers out there now. Reach helps (as it does in all three weapons).

2) Parry, or otherwise make sure you don't get hit (they miss, they stop their attack before it finishes, etc.).

3) Foil has the most fencers, then epee, then sabre. This can vary GREATLY depending on your local area however which is really what matters to you.

4) If you don't understand what your coach is telling you the first step should ALWAYS be to ask your coach to clarify. Explain what the confusion is and see if s/he can reword it differently or further amplify the point until you do understand. That said, manipulating the blade is done (correctly) with the fingers. You CAN do a line change rotating at the elbow or shoulder, it just creates a bigger, slower, more obvious movement which won't work as well. Large muscles are slower than small muscles. Moving large bones is slow. Cuts can be delivered by changing the relative tension in the fingers, by tilting the wrist, by extending the elbow, or by extending the shoulder (ok, technically I think it's adduction of the shoulder, but whatever). As you move back from the blade you get bigger motions which are slower. Now go talk to your coach. :)

5) Talk to your coach. Much better solution than trying to learn this stuff from a book.

6) ask away.

-B :)

[Adam]

Oh, just remembered this one thing that was bugging me.
We practice, my oppenent stands ready do do a parry 5 (think thats what its called ,the high one) and the other does a lunge.
So my question is, if your opponent KNOWs exactly what you are going to do, and you are both the same fast, will the attack usually get blocked most of the time? Because no matter how fast I lunge it always seems like it gets blocked(in that practice)

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Adam:

Ahhhh, to be 16 and skinny again!

1. Style. Sabre tends to reward the attack, whether that's right or wrong. Learn your attacks, and then learn to feint your attacks, while actually doing a second intention. As in, I look like I'm attacking full speed, but all of a sudden I pull up and do a parry/riposte. (may require a step back, as well) If you're a 6 foot 16 year old, have your coach show you the stop cut to the top of your opponents arm, right behind the wrist. If you've got reach on your opponent, it's a devasting, in-your-face touch.

2. Right of Way is a mystery that takes a while to learn. Search some of the other threads on this board under ROW and there are some good examples...but in general...if an attack is made with priority, you must parry it or avoid it. If you do so, then it is your right to riposte, but you must do it immediately to keep right of way. Many of the more experienced fencers use their feet to break distance from their opponents attack. When it falls short, then they attack in return

3. Sabre, of course. However, if you go by the niggling measurement of people participating at national tournaments, there are more foil and epee fencers than sabrists. Poor, misguided souls.

4. Fingers. Ok, next time at the club, take your sabre and hold it loosely, thumb on top of the grip, index and middle finger held lightly under the grip. Let your other two fingers (ring and pinky) sag free so they don't even touch the grip. Now with just your thumb and those two fingers, try to flick the tip of your sabre towards the target. The movement is much like snapping your fingers, albeit the thumb across both the index and middle finger.
Try to see how quickly you can move the tip without flexing your wrist. Now, grab the sabre with a full hand death grip, like you would an axe handle. Try to make the same quick twitches of the tip and note the difference.

5. For now, listen to your coach,and learn his style of fencing.

6. You'll have plenty more questions as you progress. Ask them all!

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Adam
Oh, just remembered this one thing that was bugging me.
We practice, my oppenent stands ready do do a parry 5 (think thats what its called ,the high one) and the other does a lunge.
So my question is, if your opponent KNOWs exactly what you are going to do, and you are both the same fast, will the attack usually get blocked most of the time? Because no matter how fast I lunge it always seems like it gets blocked(in that practice)

It's part of the mental aspect of the game. If your opponent is standing there with his blade up in 5 to block a head cut, he is "inviting" you to cut to the flank or chest, and is betting he can pull down the blade to parry the attack to the open area. So what can you do?

If he is as fast as you, you'll probably not beat him to the parry. You have a few options. You feint or pretend to cut to the flank...if he goes for it, then WITHOUT pulling your arm back, you disengage around his blade and hit him in the head or cut to the chest. Another plan is a beat on his blade. Attack to the head (he thinks its covered) and at the last moment, dip your blade UNDER his raised blade, beat upwards lightly but quickly, and without withdrawing your arm, tap him on the mask.

Now, if the drill is to have your opponent on guard normally, but he's LOOKING for the 5 parry over his head, then you adapt the feint strategy for that. You feint towards his head (needs to look like a serious attack)...when he goes into five, you change the line and drop your blade under his raised arm and hit him in the flank. Again, don't pull your arm back as you change the attack...keep it extended.

In general, you'll always find someone you can't hit, not matter HOW fast you lunge. But outsmarting them with a little misdirection...that's using their speed against them.

[Mo]

One very important issue a about fencing is WHERE you fence.
If you are at a club that does not have fellow sabrists or a coach that is comfortable coaching saber, it makes life very difficult.

Check under the USFA category of Weapon Programs and go to camps. I believe it is under Member Information and get to a camp. A week or ten days of solid fencing and drills can do wonders for your level of fencing.

You cannot get really good fencing two days a week either. It takes a real commitment and lots of practice.

[Peach]

Originally posted by Mo
One very important issue a about fencing is WHERE you fence.
If you are at a club that does not have fellow sabrists or a coach that is comfortable coaching saber, it makes life very difficult.

Check under the USFA category of Weapon Programs and go to camps. I believe it is under Member Information and get to a camp. A week or ten days of solid fencing and drills can do wonders for your level of fencing.

You cannot get really good fencing two days a week either. It takes a real commitment and lots of practice.

However, speaking as someone who has been fencing two days a week (+tournaments) for eight years with a very good set of coaches who are not really sabre coaches, it is possible to get pretty good doing just that over a very long period of time. On the other hand, this is not the answer the first poster is looking for.

[Sabresque]

I wouldn't be able to answer any of your questions any better htan the other posters, but I would like to add a couple things.

When talking about the drill (the one where you lunge and try and hit them on the head, and you try to parry 5), our coach does a similar one. One of the most important things in sabre is the attack (like's been said a million times), but what your coach is trying to get you to do in this drill, I think, is to hit with your blade, THEN land with your foot. As long as you get your hand out (FIRST!!!!) fast enough, your partner shouldn't be able to do anything about it. When fencing a bout, in a normally simultaneous action, if you get your hand out and hit them before the lunge ends, and your opponent hits in the same time as it takes to lunge, then it will also be called your attack in preperation.

About the fingers, your pointer finger and thumb should be the fingers controlling your weapon. The other three should be there (loosely holding the weapon) for support. The times that you use them are during a parry, for more power, and when finishing a cut, you squeeze slightly. In sabre, death grips aren't great for control, plus, others won't be happy when you accidentally hit them painfully hard because of it.

In terms of 1 yr. vs. 3 yrs., it can be done. There is a girl in our area who has been fencing sabre for a VERY short amount of time, and has done quite well against fencers who have been going at it for MUCH longer. It's all a matter of practice, determination, and coaching. Learn to learn from your mistakes. Watch other fencers. Go to tournaments (even if you lose, you win because you learned something!). Also, listen to the Capt. about practicing certain things to get better in practice bouts (even if it means losing!). And... at this point I'm rambling. I hope I was helpful!

[sabre saber]

Thanks for your input. I have been participating in the last few competitions (JO Qualifiers and such) and have been placing poorly. I am actually starting private lessons tommorow. I really want to be good.

[hi5]

Originally posted by oiuyt
1a) Sabre, especially at lower levels is all about agression and attacking. It's HARD to defend in sabre, make your opponent do the hard work. Eventually the fencers start getting better and actually can defend at which point it becomes a more balanced game that still has a greater emphasis on attacking than the other two weapons.

I love aggressive sabre fencers! They are so vulnerable to prep cuts, stop cuts, distance parries, simple parries.Meanwhile all my defensive little butt has to do is watch the distance and tempo.

Agressive sabre fencers are BLIND!!!

[Mulligan]

Step one: frontal lobotomy....

[whtouche]

Saying "aggressive sabre fencers are blind" is like saying defensive sabre fencers are cowards. It's a (stupid) generalization and I get the feeling you're boasting somewhat.
There's a difference between being aggressive and being reckless. Reckless people are vulnerable to attack into prep, etc.
As far as stop cuts, distance parry, and simple parries: These work on anyone if you're good enough at it.
Obviously you need to be well rounded. If you attack all the time there's problems with your game. Likewise if all you can do is defend, you're in bad shape.

[pkt]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this drill to exercise the cutting fingers:

1. Put a mask on something on the wall at about head height;
2. with sabre in your sword hand, extend arm fully, but not stiffly;
3. wrapping the last three fingers, i.e. middle, ring and little fingers loosely around the handle, push with thumb and pull with the index finger on the handle to make the cut;
4. hit the same spot twice in a row, then move on to another spot of the mask.
5. left side of the mask; top then rightside and back.

The keys to this exercise:
1. arm should be straight: No cutting with the wrist;
2. cut ONLY with the fingers;
3. shoulder and everything else should be relaxed - this is the hardest thing to learn;
4. Hitting the same spot twice ensures that you're making the cut with thefingers ONLY.

Learn the difference between actually cutting with the top 3-4 inches of your blade and laying on the blade. The cut whould give you a nice crisp pop when you make contact with the target.

What all the others have written are true.

There are no short cuts.

If your parents endowed you with good eye-hand coordination then you're one step ahead of the next guy who doesn't. But he can still overcome your inherited advantage by hard work.

There are 4 major componants in fencing:
timing
distance
technique and
strategy
these you have control over.

Read how Sun Tze beat his Prince in a horse race in his 'The Art of War' and perhaps you may learn something about strategy. The other 3 your master should be able to teach you. [Sun Tse won 2 out of 3 using similar horses: one top, one middling and one poor. - PK]

Most of all, enjoy yourself.

PK

[Adam]

My coach was having us do the doubble tap one (top of head, side of head, then side of body, then other side of body[other guy parry 5 so we can hit there]), but I just didn't know what the point of it was.
thanks

[Inquartata]

Frankly I've always wondered about the utility of that exercise myself. It seems to me that if practiced enough it would tend to ingrain itself into your muscle memory, and if your first "tap" is parried in a bout and you automatically do another because it's reflex, you have just successfully trained yourself into the habit of remising...

[Zouave]

Our coach (who has a VERY strong background in sabre) had me spend 3 weeks just working on the basic cuts to the head, right flank, and left flank - starting from extension, then adding lunge, and finally advance lunge. The first night I must have done 600+ cuts on a mask mounted on a pad on the wall in the 2 hours we had practice... Boring as hell? You bet! But, it was how the coach wanted all beginners (who were serious about competition) to get get started, so... Just like footwork, the basics will be dull, but will really help you in the long run. We also concentrate on finger control, and "feeling with the tip of your sabre", which has really helped me (and many others) get a good "grip" on our fencing (sorry for the pun - couldn't resist)

Good luck in your future bouts!