Recent cultural references to fencing

[Voldune]

135711....just wondering...what on gods green earth are you talking about? Where do you come up with this stuff? I highly doubt the ENTIRE sport has changed because of other ppl's thought on our raised hands. The sport changed that due to the fact that keeping you hand down generally makes for a better fencer. I know thats true with me. And where the heck did you come up with child molesters from????? I mean seriously...that was out of no where. Who said anything about child molesters....or gay people being child molesters??? Do you purposly try to make your replies as insane as you can? And as for seeing fencing as a lifestyle...well if your a fencer...your a athlete....and being a athlete is a lifestyle. We live, eat, and sleep fencing. At least I do. Anyways I must get back to work. Lets work on getting more on topic less insane replies so I have something coherent to read while at work.

[135711]

well, while davey and swordman plot my murder in the other folder, i'll write here one last note on the topic; i still don't see it, i'm not sure it matters a lot, and there are so many fencers, we really don't need a spotlight, i've never felt laughed at, most people admire fencing etc.

[Catal]

Originally posted by 135711
most people admire fencing etc.

There are more fencers at events than there are spectators, even at NAC's (not counting parents), and there are only 16,000+ fencers in the entire US of A... the numbers don't support your opinion. Tae Kwon Do has 2,000,000+ members, and a much greater following through fans and corporate representation, even though it's been in the U.S. since 1956 as a commercial sport. People just don't like fencing, it's neat- but, not enough to where they'd make a past time of watching it.

[drizzt_do_urden]

Originally posted by Catal
There are more fencers at events than their are spectators, even at NAC's (not counting parents), and there are only 16,000+ fencers in the entire US of A... the numbers don't support your opinion. Tae Kwon Do has 2,000,000+ members, and a much greater following through fans and corporate representation, even though it's been in the U.S. since 1956 as a commercial sport. People just don't like fencing, it's neat- but, not enough to where they'd make a past time of watching it.

I agree, and in fact I believe that many people in the USA don't even know what fencing is. This reminds me of a phone conversation had yesterday with a young lady from Montana -

me:"So anyway, I was wondering if you know anyone in Butte who fences. I'd like to find someone to practice fencing with or who would give me a lesson while I'm there next week."

young lady: "Oh yes, I know lots of people who fence. Usually we'll all just get together and have a fencing party. You know, we get a case of beer, a bunch of hammers and nails, and then just go out and build the damn fence."

[pkt]

drizzt_do_urden,

I saw this piece in the local paper, I called the police as a result.

Policewoman, "Anti-fencing unit, may I help you?"
Me, "I'm looking for some fencing eqipment... sport fencing..."
and we both had a chuckle from that...

In our club - the North Vancouver Fencing Club, we have for some odd reasons more than our quota of members of the RCMP - Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

135711,

One good reason to have the spotlight on fencing is to make it easier for those of us who compete nationally and internationally to get private funding, or sponsorship.

For the first few years of my competitive career I was forever poor... plane tickets in Canada are more expensive than the US, I think.

PK

[MikeHarm]

If you want fencing to be a popular spectator sport I believe its not possible unless you design events that are made with the idea of having it be made for the spectators to watch.

That means announcers calling the action to explain it to folks, information on who the competitors are for people to follow and have favorites to watch and a competition format that doesn't involve 8 matches going on at once without anyone not on the floor knowing whats going on or who is winning. I think a crowd at a sporting event could only be expected to watch one game/fencing match at a time and follow it. I think it might be possible to do it under the current rules if you broke it up, having the time consuming seeding rounds and maybe first round of the DE's sorted out one day and have the rest of the matches in a format that would work for public viewing pretty good.

I also think there is an issue with the fencing masks that would need to be addressed if you wanted to have fencing on tv more often. I've heard of tv crews coming to film events and the lights blinding the fencers forcing them to halt the filming so as not to interfere with the competitions. I'm pretty sure that non-reflective coloring of the masks isn't part of our current mask standards.

Originally posted by drizzt_do_urden
I agree, and in fact I believe that many people in the USA don't even know what fencing is. This reminds me of a phone conversation had yesterday with a young lady from Montana -

me:"So anyway, I was wondering if you know anyone in Butte who fences. I'd like to find someone to practice fencing with or who would give me a lesson while I'm there next week."

young lady: "Oh yes, I know lots of people who fence. Usually we'll all just get together and have a fencing party. You know, we get a case of beer, a bunch of hammers and nails, and then just go out and build the damn fence."

[Dav3ey]

I don't think that you can really explain to the crowd what's happening on the strip as it happens or just after.

What could be done is a one-hour television recap show of a fencing event showing a few highlight bouts. With video editing, the producers could create time between touches to show a slow motion replay, explain the tactics and the referee's call -- even give us a freeze-frame of the moment of the touch.

A good example of this type of coverage, oddly enough, is how they cover the World Series of Poker. Every now and then you'll see this on ESPN8 or somewhere. The actual event is not particularly good for spectators since it takes hours and hours. But they skip all the crappy hands and make a relatively continuous show of highlight hands.

This kind of episodic highly produced television coverage of events is what fencing needs for its image. When I win the lottery, it's on my list.

[Zouave]

There are a fair number of "individual" sports like fencing (tennis, for example), where hundreds of spectators show up to watch the matches. Then there are sports like swimming, where (except for collegiate matches and the Olympics) spectators are seldom there unless they have a friend or loved one participating.

The presence, or lack of, spectators at the fencing tournaments I have been to has made little (if any) difference to me as a fencer. I am there to fence, compete, score touches, have fun, and socialize. Perhaps take home some hardware, but that's not too often!

If fencing becomes more "spectator friendly", I don't think it will have much of an impact on me personally. If it helps our highly rated fencers ger sponsorship/more attention/a shot at a national team berth, I think that's great. But if nobody came to watch the local fencing matches, I think we'd all be just as satisfied with the results. And STILL manage to get a lot out of our time spent there...

[Dav3ey]

All quite true.

But sport fencing suffers from it's popular misconception as antiquated and elitist.

Lots of schools that could fund great programs don't and lots of people who'd love to fence don't because of this.

The more they know, the better. Getting more people better acquainted with the sport can only help.

[Zouave]

Your point is well taken. At our academy (Virginia Academy of Fencing), we offer 2 levels of beginning programs to introduce the general public to fencing, and they can choose to pursue either recreational fencing, sport fencing, or historical fencing. There are thousands of people who have seen "what fencing is all about", through these classes. I would love to have more people fencing in our area, and around the country.

When I've discussed fencing with people, most of them are "unenlightened" about modern fencing - I certainly try to help them along the path of enlightenment without coming across as a sermonizing know-it-all We have gotten some very good coverage in our local area in the papers, and a brief shot on a local sports TV newscast. We're very thankful for that, not just for the academy, but for fencing in general.

Maybe someday we'll be able to see a fine film where fencing is portrayed as WE the fencing community wish it to be seen. Accurate, exciting, memorable... Think we can get Roy Firestone on board for this?

[Dav3ey]

Maybe we can run it by whatever studio cut the check for Youngblood -- although I doubt we could get Rob Lowe to do his gratuitous butt shot again.

[135711]

haggis, sorry, someone sounded upset earlier and i wanted to calm him down a bit, the best way to do that is to just write the topic on the table, get it out there so to speak and then everyone feels comfortable that the board isn't being invaded by monsters.

about fencing and media, i'm certainly not a spokesperson for this, but i don't see any advantage to it, other than helping a few people with sponsorship; but this brings up an interesting point of fencing. i'll mention briefly that in meeting a person who was sponsored to fence by a bank, i thought to myself; why doesn't it happen here? this kid was personally sponsored [or maybe his university was], but the point is, the team here need to approach local businesses to see whether or not they can receive sponsorship. media would boost the professional fencing league, but i don't know anything about them. i have no problem with the idea of professional fencing however. it seemed at first to the so-called purist, that professional fencing would be a sell-out to some kind of principle, but, it really isn't. The reality of it is, it's probably overdue. Very smart people grasp these things first, the rest of us have to develop a reference point for it. Perhaps the reference point will come from the Awards money that some salles are offering for the first place and second place fencers. I do apologize for my attitude towards it, I have an overly developed sence of romance in fencing.

[Mo]

The reason fencing is not a big spectator sport in the US is because it is unknown. Before my kids started fencing I didn't know a thing about it. Once it gets bigger which I think it will, people will start to recognize it and watch it on the tube.
Fencing is a very old and very new sport.

[135711]

I think this thread is wonderfully focused, we've maintained our focus very well, there seems to be though, several differing points of view!

1. which suggests that we need to have more spotlight on the sport which in turn would bring in more money;
2. which suggests that we are satisfied with the level of spotlight on the sport. Maybe it's going to take many years, like a few hundred and we won't see the glamorous part of it, but right now, it's fun. Maybe it's over media, oversaturation, too many big competitions; cup this, cup that, northwest, spain cup, russia cup, cup cup cup and then, olympics, every time you turn around there is something, then there's the categories; div 1, div 2, div 3, veteran up to 40 , veteran up to 50 veteran pass the iv; junior, cadet, teen-day, etc. it's too much, there's really enough. What is it that you want? Big indoor stadium with thousands of cheering fans! It can't work, they can't see the action that high up.

A fencing sports reporter for Sports Illustrated magazine; someone who writes about National's, Cups, and Olympics, as well as the international fencing athletes.

It would have to be like the National Fencing League, with huge sponsors and tv ads, with people sitting in their living room screaming over the next bout and drinking beer over Tuesday night fencing. I don't think it will ever happen!

[MikeHarm]

Thats a problem thats already been solved with the bigscreens to show the action at the stadiums. If it works for boxing and tennis I see no reason it wouldn't work for fencing too.

Originally posted by 135711
I

What is it that you want? Big indoor stadium with thousands of cheering fans! It can't work, they can't see the action that high up.

A fencing sports reporter for Sports Illustrated magazine; someone who writes about National's, Cups, and Olympics, as well as the international fencing athletes.

It would have to be like the National Fencing League, with huge sponsors and tv ads, with people sitting in their living room screaming over the next bout and drinking beer over Tuesday night fencing. I don't think it will ever happen!

[KC]

This is something I have thought about for a while... In US football we now have a line on our tv screens to show us where the 1st down marker is. What if we had series of very small sensors in our lames or jackets that would register where the hit was scored so that when a spectator was watching the bout on TV, a small highlighted area on the fencer would light up showing a touch. That way everybody watching on TV could see the hit when it hit.

Or those that are editing the film for re-broadcast could do this with some CG effects it would just take a small amount of time.

Maybe it would work maybe it wouldn't but hey its an idea. Maybe just not a very good one!

[pkt]

KC,

One of the American TV channels tried to popularise ice hockey by adding a light tail to the path of the puck. The concept was OK, it eliminated a common omplaint about hockey.

All the hockey purists scffed at the idea and the thing died after one year.

I think Zouave's Academy is doing the right thing.

With something as complex and fast as fencing - sabre and foil for sure - it is difficulty for 'uninitiated' spectators to know what right of way (RoW) is and therefore cannot follow that action, bigscreen replay or not.

On the other hand, epee whould be easy to understand: Whoever lands his hit first scores the point. How much easier can it get?

so, in stead of doing away with RoW, the only alternative is to educate the uneducated. I think Virginia Academy of Fencing i son the right path.

Given human nature, until fencing has our own Lance Armstrong, fencing will not get good TV coverage/exposure.

So, my final suggestion is: Let's go people, go get that WC!

PK





PK

[Zouave]

I like the idea about the various sensors in the lames and masks (for sabre). I'm sure we can get wireless scoring to work, and be accepted, plus "mask cam" video, and a whole host of other existing technologies to work for us.

The problem is money - specifically, money to get this all implemented. It seems like a Catch 22 scenario - you can't get spectators to watch the events unless it's "TV friendly", and the TV folks won't get involved unless there is a market (i.e. spectators) for them to flash advertising spots. Hmmm.....

Unless we suddenly discover that a generous billionaire has decided to make fencing a mainstream sport, we're going to have to rely on a "grassroots" level education of Americans about the great sport/hobby/pastime/love of fencing.

[The_Claw]

it sounds a little star warsy for me, the saber helmet thing was one thing, it's a little much, actually, i can't stand to look at the little prussian ting that's on the back of the visor, it looks silly. on the other hand, the whole thing may be a natural evolution of the sport....[oh no!! youth takes over again] it could get pretty intensive; more micro-fencing than ever before! live! there's another way of making the sport totally accessible to the public:

one weapon fencing. The Epee with a cut, and we dump the lame.

[KC]

Ok so how would cutting with an epee register a hit without a lame'?

Not to mention all the heavy handed hits breaking a few bones... Maybe that would increase viewing...