Sabre grip posting - efficiency?

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

I and another epeeist (he lefty, I righty, we are same length) were "sabre fencing", something we do once in a while, but neither of us have any formal training in it.

The time before he had scored more than me, so I decided that some change was in order. I decided to try holding the grip close to the lock nut (correct translation?) to get more distance. Turned out to work well - I scored more than him. Mostly, I did cuffticklers, but I also tried a few times to cut across his blade, push it backwards, and hit him while his blade was nowhere near me (epee personality showing, I guess) and did not experience any big problem with weak grip, as would have happened if I would have done the same thing with a French epee grip.

I have not seen real sabreurs fencing like this, so there must be some catch. Why does it not work in real sabre fencing?

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Repechage]

Actually, you will see sabre fencers doing this, and some sabre fencers hold their weapons like this all the time, with the pommel nut in the palm of their hands instead of projecting past the hand. Other fencers will adjust the grip only for stop hits because the increased length in a relaxed stop hit to the hand more than makes up for the reduced ability to parry.

The parries in sabre are more dependent these days on correct distance than on strength of grip.

[oiuyt]

Specifically, _I_ am an A-rated sabre fencer who posts. Probably not for the reasons that most people would assume however.

When I first fenced sabre I had one of those not-uncommon incidents where both bells smash. My thumb hit the inside of my bell and it hurt. My solution, loop my pinky on the outside of the bell (on the pommel nut) to keep my hand from sliding. A bit later I got my own sabres which had these massive pommel nuts. Enough so that there was room enough, and it felt right to, have TWO fingers outside my bell. I fenced that way for about a season (earning a C in the process) before switching back to a more conventional inside the bell grip (still at the end of the handle) which I have used since.

I got VERY used to lots of comments about my style during the year I held it with two fingers out. I had switched from epee and it felt like the closest thing a sabre has to a pistol grip and very natural. Most of the comments focused on the stupidity of leaving my fingers out to be smashed and the stupidity of sacrificing any ability to parry shots below my arm, neither of which ever proved to be a problem for me.

-B :)

[whtouche]

While it's not quite so common to hold the sabre with any fingers outside the guard holding the pommel, it's been my experience that holding the grip as close to the bottom of the guard as possible is very common, and I know of at least one coach at the Boston fencing club who instructs his students to hold their sabres like this. When playing more of a distance game, I hold the sabre down near the "bottom" of the bell guard, with the last knuckle of my pinky finger near the tip bent around the guard resting on the pommel, my thumb about 3/4 the way up the grip towards the inside of the guard.
When fencing closer in I hold it so there's nearly an inche between the bottom of the guard and my pinky finger, and my thumb is just a fraction of an inche from the inside of the guard. This isnt so much for the leverage it lends to my parries, tho I believe that is part of it, as it is because I find holding it in his position makes it easier to move around when 'in fighting' or the closest to it you can do in sabre I suppose.

[pkt]

Peter,

The way I was taught - by both a French maitre d'armes and a Polish fencing master - was that there are two schools of thought on how to hold a sabre. As a result i alternate between these two.

One was of course the French school:
thumb and forefinger close to the 'top' of the guard with the thunmb and forefingers together on either side of the handle.

The other was the easern European method:
four fingers together with the thumb sticking out like the hand signal for '#1'.

[Methinks it's the N. Americans who use the index finger to signify #1, most other people use the 'thumbs up' gesture... Correct me if I'm wrong.]

The diff?

The French school has more finesse, easier to do circular actions etc. whereas the eastern eurpean method has more power...

The only real ortho grip for sabre is the one I have on my 1908 British sabre that I discussed in the 'Best fencing movie' thread.

there is a thumb depression on the top of the handle. Then there is a knob on the underside where the thumb is so that one can only hold the sabre in the eastern Euro method. I guess in this case they discourage the sabreur from holding the sabre at the very end of the grip.

Thi shandle was built for POWER. I made a replica for my fencing sabre, the head riposte from quinte, shall we say, tend to be 'heavy-handed'...


PK

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

pkt wrote:
------
This handle was built for POWER. I made a replica for my fencing sabre, the head riposte from quinte, shall we say, tend to be 'heavy-handed'...
------

One of my teammates had to stop fencing 1963 due to something like that. He - in a top-level national sabre comp, with then about two decades of experience in sabre - parried quinte when his opponent cut to the head from above. Problem was that the cut hit the forte of his blade, get on going downwards, and dislocated his thumb joint in the process.

Ouch.

That, and the time pressures of being a traveling salesman, kept him from fencing up until quite recently - a few months ago. Despite the long hiatus, he still cuts me up like a pound of meat unless I move real fast. During footwork drills, he can put several other people who train here - who could be his grandchildren, and in some cases great-grandchildren - to shame when he continues his fast, good-form marche/rompe while they stand panting with rubber legs and have to rest. Cuts their ego down to size, and is hopeful for us over 30.

Last time, he showed me his 65-year old mask. It has a fairly small bib, and there is a 5 mm diameter reinforcing steel thread running down the vertical crease in front inside the face mesh. Other than that, is looks similar to a modern foil mask. He got it when he was a beginner, and had only started fencing foil at the time.

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[pkt]

Peter,

Your story reminds me of this one tournament, me and one of my clubmates went up against this silfer-haired old gent who was, after fencing the young one, huffing and puffing.

Naturally we thought he'd be easy meat. Boy, were we proven wrong:
In spite of the fact that he didn't have the legs or lungs (not lunge) to move, his sword hand was no slower than a much younger person... we both couldn't get through his parries and lost to him...

Good lesson for us two young turkeys...

PK