fatalities: why 71% epee, 100% men?

[buccaneer]

mfp's post (craziest accidents thread) left me wondering,

why 71% epee,
why 100% men?
Is this even true?
If yes, is epee so much more common or overrepresented?

[edew]

Because men are generally bigger and hit harder and have greater momentum. Because women have only been fencing epee since the mid-80s (in statisically significant numbers), and sabre since the mid-90s (in statistically significant numbers).

Because epees are stiffer and heavier, so when it breaks (or even when it doesn't break), it hits harder than foil or sabre.

You're not likely to see a sabre fatality because most of the hits in sabre are with the edge. So even if the blade breaks, the movement of the tip is perpendicular to the length of the blade. Not likely to kill someone that way. Unless they're not wearing any protection near the neck and you manage to sever some major arteries around there.

In foil, with the advent of better equipment, the flex of the foil will absorb most of the energy and so it's not likely to cause puncturing.

Lastly, the numbers are so small as to make the conclusions (71% epee, 100% men) statistically insignificant. If one person who died by epee actually died by foil, your numbers might be 50% epee or lower. Such large swings in the percentages indicate that the sampling size is too small to make useful conclusions from just the statistical data.

[a517dogg]

epee has fleche. i'm guessing that most of the accidents that happen in fencing happen on the fleche.

[veeco]

I also heard that most of the accidents happen when the opposition if lefty-righty (opposite hands fencing basically).

However I don't have any statistical data to back it up. The recent accident between Obry and Leroy was one of these opposition types (Obry is a lefty and he injured Leroy who's a righty).

[pkt]

edew, et al,

see my post on a real sabre injury in the crazy... thread.

Edew is right, most of the injuries are caused by point attacks including the one in sabre that I witnessed.

So perhaps we should ban point attacks, eh? Just cuts.

PK

[pkt]

Simple, you duck and stick your point out in a line a la hedgehog, similar to what Robin Hood (Errol Flynn, The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) ) did tot he bad guy, ot what the bad guy did to Gabriel in Mel Gibson's 'The Patriot' but not exactly.

PK

[damianip]

r

Originally posted by 135711
I almost got killed by a giant male epeeist with a thrust to the mask, almost ko'd. I felt the whole thing, there I went, over to the edge [help!- I thought - help, mr director call it a bout, throw me out of the ring]. It really and truly nearly killed me and it was a thrust, not a cut. He started off engarde, when the director said fence, he saw me hesitate for a few seconds, I was sizing him up [don't do it, just keep moving], and he drew his arm [which was massive anyway] back like a wind up, and went into a classic upper line lunge into the maskolla and there was nothing i could do. that's why i asked the question: what to do for mask attack? It's got to be high prime. I use prime a lot, but, my weakness is the riposte out of prime.

p.s. he was brought his right foot back first [he's a right handed fencer], are there any rules about bringing your foot back before engaging in a lunge.

Couple of things:[list=1][*]Ducking is good if you see the attack developing, which from your description, appears that you did.[*]If he drew his arm back, he should have never had the opportunity to hit you.[*]If he also drew his right foot back, then he REALLY never should have hit you.[*]Hit him under the arm, wrist, or hand if the attack is coming that high.[*]Stay awake, size folks up when you're out of distance.[*]Stick to the limp weapons (foil, sabre).[/list=1]

Did your mask get penetrated? Check it thoroughly even if it didn't.

Paolo

[Strydus]

Not that this answers the question, but why on earth is everyone so fascinated by fencing deaths and injuries. Talk about a morbid bunch...

"He almost killed me during that bout!" (he says with a gleeful smile. Go figure)

[pkt]

135711,

I changed my avatar to show you the action.

It's from the 2002 WC in Lisbon. Team foil. pcme-077 is the foto.

http://www.fpe.pt/esgrima2002/pcme-077.jpg


Oh, one more thing, if someone pulls his arm back the way you mentioned it, you can always step in to take the distance away from him. Yes, he'll rap you a la sabre cut, but in foil or epee a cut won't count, right? And as you step in, you put the point in wherever you fancy.


PK

[Mulligan]

Hey...I have a better idea. Retreat.

Retreat is ALWAYS your best defense. If he rung your bell THAT bad you were fencing too close.

[nahouw]

Originally posted by veeco
I also heard that most of the accidents happen when the opposition if lefty-righty (opposite hands fencing basically).

However I don't have any statistical data to back it up. The recent accident between Obry and Leroy was one of these opposition types (Obry is a lefty and he injured Leroy who's a righty).

I'll agree that more accidents occur when they are on the left-right pairing. Being left-handed, you are used to facing right-handers, and part of why left-handed fencers are found disproportinately at the higher levels is because they are more correct form-wise out of sheer necessity. So the expected accident is that a lefty will injure a righty, because the righty isn't as form-cognizant as a lefty would be -- the righty isn't familiar with fencing lefties, and may do things that may endanger themselves, since the difference in the right-left pairing is that your weapons are closer than same-handed pairings, and form is more improtant.

Also, as Eric has pointed out, that women haven't been fencing epee as long as men. I can see down the road that the next fatal accident will occur with women. Many women lunge with a further drawn back arm -- I think partially due to body mechanics and different center of gravity, and this skews their sense of distance. I know of one fencer from England that withdraws her arm so far back before she lunges that her elbow is far behind her. If her opponent puts out a point in line on her withdrawal, she proceeds to lunge anayway, with her mask hitting her opponent's bell guard, and then finishes with a punch to her opponent -- of course, it is very effective, because her opponent's point is passe, so it is 1 light for her, but it isn't very safe.

In addition, women tend to be more fond of counter-attacks than men. The best example of this is the Markovic (sp?) girl from Germany. She has a great sense of timing, and she waits for an attack to come, and then she lunges with a counter-attack while ducking at the same time -- it causes her opponent to go passe, and since she is closing the distance by lunging on the counter-attack, it is 1 light for her. She has been very succesful with this, however, it is creating a very dangerous situation. Time will tell on how dangersous this tactic is and the extent of injury to the opponent.

[edew]

Originally posted by nahouw
[...]

Also, as Eric has pointed out, that women haven't been fencing epee as long as men. I can see down the road that the next fatal accident will occur with women. Many women lunge with a further drawn back arm -- I think partially due to body mechanics and different center of gravity, and this skews their sense of distance.[...]

But women are required to wear breast protectors, and most women now wear those full chest protector thingees. They are very good at stopping anything sharp from penetrating. Men are not required to wear any solid chest protectors, and I don't expect the rule to change anytime soon. Thus, women aren't more likely to be the next fatal accident to happen in fencing.

A hit to the mask is a hit to the mask, whether it's woman-vs-woman or man-vs-man. In today's NY Times sport section, it mentions that men have 28% more power in their actions, for the same proportional size and weight male/female comparison. Thus, even though some women might do dangerous actions or really crank up for the hit, they're still not going to hit as hard as the hardest hit a man can do.

[buccaneer]

Originally posted by Strydus
Not that this answers the question, but why on earth is everyone so fascinated by fencing deaths and injuries. Talk about a morbid bunch...

"He almost killed me during that bout!" (he says with a gleeful smile. Go figure)

in my case, side effect of medical school.

edew, i get to read plenty of articles with conclusions based on n=7
claiming to be highly significant

must be some SPSS trick

[edew]

Highly significant to that person who wrote the article, hoping it will be published so (s)he has something to show for when trying to get tenure....

Other than that....

[remise]

Edew -

I once had a large fellow "stiff-arm" me with such force that he nearly knocked me off my feet. He got a yellow card for using excessive force, and I had a bruise the size of a softball right above where my chest protector stops protecting. That's one of the things that inspired me to develop my own armour.

In a later tournament, another giant (I'm rather small for epee) nailed me so hard even the ref stopped action and asked if I was ok. The larger fellow didn't realize his distance and admitted as much. I admitted to having armour. That's when the ref said,"Was that the noise I heard? I thought it was a bone or something. That's wonderful. Fencers ready......"

[pkt]

135711,

'ridiculose'
Is that some new kind of cellulose?
or is it something like 'nu-cu-lar'?

PK
Befuddle ESL-speaker.

[Dav3ey]

Originally posted by buccaneer
i get to read plenty of articles with conclusions based on n=7

It's been a while for me, so be gentle -- but could they have been using Student's t-scores to account for the low sample size?


(Another thread goes quantitative! )

[JEC]

Originally posted by 135711
if n is greater than .5, then there is statistical significance. i hated research...

Mango,
If the "p" value is less or equal to 0.05, it is considered to have statistical significance. However, there are biological differences that exist that might have no "clinical" (practical in other fields) significance.

Now, 28% more power probably has some practical significance in terms of how far a blade would go. However, another aspect that has not been considered is that women are "smaller" than men, and thus, their reach is less increasing the number of attacks to the wrist and arm.

[edew]

He forgot a comma: "...less, increasing..."

But that's not exactly true. Just because women are smaller doesn't mean they don't hit deeper. They just start a bit closer and hit just as deep.

[BugabooX]

Hmmm... Potential tangental hijackings:

1. So you're saying a woman can't do as much damage as a man? That's stupid!

2. Your math is faulty, and here's why...

3. Ever notice how someone with nothing useful to contribute will start picking on syntax and spelling errors instead?

4. I heard that the majority of fencing accidents occur within one mile of where you live. So it's safer to fence somewhere far away.

5. What's size got to do with anything?!

6. Minimum safety standards for masks should be upgraded. Our current equipment is too darn dangerous.

7. Anyone remember that episode of "Magnum P.I." where the guy got electrocuted while he was fencing? I forget which weapon he was using. Is that included in the statistics you cited?