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cowpaste · 02-25-2003, 10:31 AM

I keep on getting slightly different adivce for how to hold the French grip. I guess it's just different styles. Some people tell me to tilt my hand this way or that way. Some people tell me to supponate(whatever that word is) my wrist when I extend. Is there some website with pictures that I could look at? Maybe one of you could take a peekture with a digital camera? Is there is indeed more than one way to use a French grip (which I believe is most likely true) then what are the advantages/disadvantages of each method?

damianip · 02-25-2003, 11:06 AM

Foil or épée?

veeco · 02-25-2003, 12:36 PM

There are about as many ways to hold a French grip than there are fencers who are using it. Just find a position where it feels comfortable in your hand.

Some people for example (I'm talking epee here), like to pommel a French grip, and use their index finger extended for control.

Some others wrap their index around the grip to have a stronger, tighter grip.

It all depends on what you like...

cowpaste · 02-25-2003, 12:51 PM

I fench foil. Well since apparently there are many ways to hold it, I would like to learn about them all. Then I could try the various ways and see what I like the most.

edew · 02-25-2003, 01:08 PM

Well, if you fence foil, play around with the grip until you find a good feel. Then discard it and use a pistol grip. No point learning how to hold onto a french grip in foil only to see it knocked out of your hand at every other beat.

cowpaste · 02-25-2003, 03:37 PM

Pffft, I'm gonna use the french grip just because everyone tells me pistol is better in foil.

JEC · 02-25-2003, 05:06 PM

The only nationally ranked foilist that I know that uses a french grip is Cassidy Luitjen. Edew, you have seen her fence. What you think of her fencing with a french grip?

edew · 02-25-2003, 05:28 PM

She's moved to NY and training with NYFC fencers. Either Petin or Leach. She doesn't use a french grip anymore. I think she switched at least before this season.

So there's no top-level fencer* who fences with a french grip.

Cowpaste, as I've advised others, feel free to be stubborn and wield a french grip foil. We pistolgrippers love that. Makes our early rounds that much easier to deal with.

*And I'd hardly call Cassidy a top-level -- certainly not at the senior level; she's pretty good at the cadet/junior level, although she didn't do as well as her history would indicate in the JWF at the JOs. She certainly has improved from her french grip time. I must say that when she did use a french grip, she did manage to do well -- in the cadet/junior categories -- in her bouts. She'll make flick hits that I wouldn't imagine cadet girls would hit even with a pistolgrip. It may be that the french helped strengthened her grip.

But, there are better and more effective ways to strengthen one's grip without resorting to using a french grip. Indeed, using a french grip for practice and then going to a pistolgrip for competition is bad form, as your technique goes out the window.

135711 · 02-25-2003, 05:44 PM

your analysis is the same as other's advice in the past about going from french grip in practice to pistol in competition, that it doesn't work you should stick with the same grip. i used french grip in the first 6 months of fencing, because i needed to accelerate with the french grip, you really do 'lose your grip' if you don't develop strength. i use pistol grips now.

question: why don't we dump the french grips altogether? the french grip is used in the introduction to foil/fencing, then after 6-7 months they all switch to pistol/why not start off right from the beginning.

coaches can cut the tangs of their french grips and replace them with pistol grips right?

DHCJr · 02-25-2003, 06:13 PM

But which one. You can make the statement that no top level Foilist does not use the French, but you can't make the statement that all top level Foilist use handle 'X'. The French gives you a common starting point and then you can have them move to a handle based on all the different variables. Take for example size, with French you can by with Left and Right and if you want child and regular size. Even if a teacher went with one type of Pistol Grip, they would probably need Small, Medium and Large as well as them all being in Left and Right.

Unless a club or school has money to burn, they should simplify their life and have their classes using French.

JEC · 02-25-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
She's moved to NY and training with NYFC fencers. Either Petin or Leach. She doesn't use a french grip anymore. I think she switched at least before this season.

So there's no top-level fencer* who fences with a french grip.

...

*And I'd hardly call Cassidy a top-level -- certainly not at the senior level; she's pretty good at the cadet/junior level, although she didn't do as well as her history would indicate in the JWF at the JOs. She certainly has improved from her french grip time. I must say that when she did use a french grip, she did manage to do well -- in the cadet/junior categories -- in her bouts. She'll make flick hits that I wouldn't imagine cadet girls would hit even with a pistolgrip. It may be that the french helped strengthened her grip.

Ranked #12 at the senior and #6 at the junior women's foil national rankings is top-level. She is fencing under Bucky Leach. Her former coach is ours too.

135711 · 02-25-2003, 09:45 PM

The best grip is truely the belgium grip. However, you have to make sure you buy the right size. If you want to see an American kid train and win gold, then you have to be honest with them and don't let them train too long in the french grip. Even no training french grip is better. Some people selected the french grip for the flick, it is alot easier to flick with the french grip, as well as go into prime, very fast, but, for the recovery into a lunge from prime or from sixth parry, I believe an orthopedic grip is better. Visconti is nice, but I've been thinking of going back to Belgium where I started. I never used the french grip at first, I began with Belgium, but decided [after age 40, and I had no illusions about becoming a fencing superherione] to try the french grip for the experience of it.

Also, so many people criticize the way a person grips the french grip, it's almost not worth it, it takes a long time to get it right. You have to have the handle against your wrist, most of the time, they get too controversial over the fact that the grip's handle can be seen, which in the coach's mind means 'the opponent can see it too'; whether it's a weak or strong grip on the grip is another matter.

p.s. the saber is made with a french grip, but the engardes are completely different, and all the attacks will be different, i'm also thinking that without the crossover, the footwork will cause the engarde to lower, making the grip change?

Dav3ey · 02-25-2003, 10:30 PM

Let me know if we've done this to death, but maybe we could open a poll thread on handles -- the one you pick up when you're serious?

French
Visconti, small
Visconti, medium
Visconti, large
Belgian
German
Russian

Italian
Spanish (click to view, No. 556/S)
Dos Santos (click to view, No. 556/DS)
Zivkovic (click, choose FOIL, then HANDLES and scroll down)
Gardere (click, scroll down about half way)
Others?

(It seems that your average, hum-drum, regular, proletarian member can't call for a vote on a matter -- how realistic. Maybe I can prevail upon our Rules Committee to bring this urgent matter to the floor....

)

JEC · 02-25-2003, 11:04 PM

The grip shown in the picture as Gardere is not legal because as an orthopedic grip you can't be gripped in two different manners (pommel and normal). The fencing rules state that the tip of the thumb has to be at or less than 2 cm from the most anterior aspect of the back of the guard. This also applies to the Dos Santos grip and the Spanish grip shown in the Negrini page. I believe the Spanish offset is allowed.

135711 · 02-25-2003, 11:50 PM

rather than rely upon the french grip for prime, for the mask parry, evasive action seems the better course, but we shouldn't let go of a good parry because of the grip. anyone out there design stuff? what about a grip that's essentially a french grip, but with spirals and a little shorter?

Dav3ey · 02-26-2003, 12:03 AM

If we do get a poll, the author can limit it in anyway s/he wants. Foil fencers only? Epee fencers only? FIE only? USFA only? Whatever. I just want a poll -- to see if I really am the only Russian handle user in the world.

Also, by this rule is the Italian handle OK? Or is that not considered sufficiently "orthopaedic"? Or that it doesn't "fix the hand" in a position? Does it matter one wit?

edew · 02-26-2003, 02:47 AM

Derek Cotton is a russian handle user, so you're not the only one. I don't know of too many others, though.

The italian grip, like other pistolgrips, cannot be effectively held in any other way other than the "standard" way of holding the grip. Thus, it would not break the 2cm rule since it pretty much fixes your hand to one position.

The rule states that if the grip has any prongs or other extremities to help on hold it securely (i.e, any non-french grip), then your thumb can't be more than 2cm from the inside of the bellguard (or pad or whatever). The gardere can definitely be held effectively with the thumb beyond the 2cm distance.

Note that this distance rule is by honor system. No anal-retentive referee is going to measure fencers' thumb to inside guard distance prior to each bout. But, if you hold a gardere in such an obviously illegal way, then you'll be penalized. The gardere itself is not illegal. It's just that you're not allowed to hold it in an illegal way.

The french grip, being one without prongs and such, allows one to hold it any way he or she wishes.

cowpaste · 02-26-2003, 04:27 AM

Since I am so ignorant and dumb dumb, why exactly are the ortho grips better in foil? I read somewhere that French grips can be good in épée, so what's the difference?

AaronK · 02-26-2003, 08:06 AM

Why they are better? It depends on your definition of better. As Donald stated before a fencing club teaching beginners would not consider Pistol Grips better because they only fit well in certain people's hands while someone else's might be too big or small. This would require them to purchase more weapons- possibly ones they can't afford.
What advantages do they [pistol grips] pose? Well there is more surfae area contact with your hand than a frhench grip, providing more strength. Also becaue of the shape of most pistol grips, the small fingers (ring & pinky) get better leverage because angle and hand position on the grip. This is why it is so difficult to flick with a French grip, the fencer has to swich hand positions to flick easily (holding the weapon like a saber).
The competitive fencers I know who use a French grip have to cant thier tangs so severely in order to be comfortable in thier hands that it wont fit through a gague (making it illegal) and takes the weapon out of alignment if they wanted to post.

edew · 02-26-2003, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cowpaste
Since I am so ignorant and dumb dumb, why exactly are the ortho grips better in foil? I read somewhere that French grips can be good in épée, so what's the difference?

This question is best answered by trying. Find a pistolgrip that works for you (size and style), try it for six months and see if you can do the same things with a french afterwards.