Using a French Grip

[damianip]

Originally posted by cowpaste
Since I am so ignorant and dumb dumb, why exactly are the ortho grips better in foil? I read somewhere that French grips can be good in épée, so what's the difference?

They are good in épée because there is no ROW and, therefore, anything which allows one to hit first (in this case, the French's extra reach and angulation) can be an advantage. In foil, with ROW, this advantage really can't be used extensively.

However, since you never get something for nothing, there are compromises. Beats and takes must be executed more precisely and distance must be controlled more carefully. Muscling (sp?) your way through or against a take is pretty much out of the question.

Paolo

[drizzt_do_urden]

Originally posted by cowpaste
Pffft, I'm gonna use the french grip just because everyone tells me pistol is better in foil.

I agree with you here completely cowpaste. And, although being new to fencing, I can't say I have expert knowledge on this subject, in other areas of my life I've never listened to people who say something can't be done a certain way, and I've been quite successful, therefore I'm not too worried about going contrary to popular opinion here either.

[cowpaste]

I fence at a college club which hates flicking and considers it the lowest way to score. I bet for that reason and because of cost, they start us beginners with a French grip.

BTW, why exactly is it called a French grip? Since supposedly all French grip foilists suck, I bet the nation French team uses pistols.

[DHCJr]

When fencing first started as a sport only two handles were allowed. One from the French School and one from the Italian School of Fencing. I use school as a general term. The history of how the pistol grip developed supposedly was someone had an injury to their hand and could not hold the french grip and of course would never think of using the Italian grip. They went to their doctor, who had them squeeze some modeling clay and made a handle for them. They were told they could not use it in competition and they protested the doctor had told them to use it. So it was required they get a doctor's prescription. Soon many others obtained doctor's presciption, so they started allowing them. I don't know how true it is, but that is the story I heard.

[edew]

Originally posted by cowpaste
I fence at a college club which hates flicking and considers it the lowest way to score. I bet for that reason and because of cost, they start us beginners with a French grip.

BTW, why exactly is it called a French grip? Since supposedly all French grip foilists suck, I bet the nation French team uses pistols.

The top-four men's foil fencers on the French team, Franck Boidin, Brice Guyart, Jean-Noel Ferrari, and Loic Attelly all use pistolgrips. I think, if you look down the list of all french foilists, you'll see pistolgrip users probably down to the 3000th french foil fencer, if they have that many active foil fencers.

I believe they tend to use the belgian modern grip as opposed to the visconti grip that most others prefer.

As for popularity, it isn't popularity that induces people to use pistolgrips. It's because it works better that people use pistolgrips.

There are many pistolgrips and not all are used equally often. The German grip, or sometimes called the german visconti, is seldom used (I used to use it and found it horrid). The classic belgian is not used as often as the modern belgian.

[a517dogg]

i was unaware of two different kinds of belgian grips. do you have links ot pictures of them, what'st he difference?

italian visconti is the normal visconti, correc?

[Dav3ey]

Originally posted by edew
The gardere itself is not illegal. It's just that you're not allowed to hold it in an illegal way.

So you can use it in USFA competition? But if you get caught posting, then you get -- what? Clearly a card. And the weapon confiscated?

[edew]

Definitely a card, and maybe confiscation of weapon. I don't know; no one ever use a gardere in competition. It's not that great of a grip to use. I used to have one and it was pointless in more ways than one.

[DHCJr]

Eric the Gardere is illegal for competition. Check out rule M4.6a. "It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip. You CAN hold the Gardere in more than one position and that is enough that makes it illegal. Gardere has been named as an illegal weapon by the FIE. Now you say why not put the name in the rule book as illegal. I will answer that with an example. The Federal Government tried to ban assault weapons by name, the manufacturers just changed the name. If they listed in the rules Gardere as illegal, someone could sell the GardereX as a legal handle.

[edew]

I'm very well aware of the easy loophole if one listed illegal grips (or guns) by name. It has to be described by functionality.

I'll accept your correction of my claim about the Gardere. It won't meet specifications upon initial inspection, nevermind the possibility of the fencer using it in an illegal manner.

[DHCJr]

Eric,

I knew you would understand. That statement was mostly for others who haven't been around as long as you and me. I get that question a lot and have to explain why they are not listed.

In my clinics, I always state the first tool a fencer should get is a rule book. I also tell them they not only have to know the rule book, they have to understand the rules. A prime example is M13. It states the blade of the Foil must be insulated for 15cm, not more than or less than. So is 14cm legal or is 16cm legal. If you understand the WHY of the rule, you will know that 14cm is legal, but 16cm is illegal and also if you're stupid enough to do it no tape is legal.

[Pikkewyn]

(From speaking to French fencers, I understand that they know the "French grip" as a "straight grip" - they will say that French can refer to a pistol-type OR to a straight type grip, and it is an Anglo thing to call it a French handle. )
There is some merit in trying French or straight grips if you have large, strong hands.
A good approach to learning to use it is to develop a tight grip with the thumb and fore-finger, very close to the coquille, the index finger knuckle hard against the cushion, and with the thumb, even bending the last joint of the thumb to pinch with the thumb tip; then to have the other three fingers flat on the shaft of the grip. Your aim is to get disengages and circular movements very fast and strong.
The grip should also not be excessively offset - bent - so that you have the blade near enough in a continuous line with the fore-arm. The ring finger and pinky-finger are then just able to reach the grip, but you still have the good the mechanical advantage of having a grip over 5 inches or12 centimetres of the shaft of your handle. The pommel in contact with you wrist aids accuracy.
You can still alter the hold on your handle for those angulated or flick hits, or such moves as a prime parry or ninth upward parry - or for those pommel "posting" stop-hits.
Sorry - nothing new in this advice - but if you do have strong, large hands, it is worthwhile being able to use straight grips as well as the right-sized and right-style pistol grip.

[drizzt_do_urden]

Originally posted by DHCJr


In my clinics, I always state the first tool a fencer should get is a rule book. I also tell them they not only have to know the rule book, they have to understand the rules.

Where do you get a rulebook? Are USFA and FIE rules the same, or is there is different rule book for each? If so, which one do you recommend (i.e. which is more commonly used)?

[DHCJr]

First I want to commend Pikkewyn. One thing we sometimes forget that what we may call something is not universal.

First you can download the rule books from the USFA and FIE web site. There are differences. The USFA rule book is copied from the British translation of the FIE rule book and then the USFA decides on any differences. For example, the FIE rule book only allows pools of 6 and 7. The USFA allows for other numbers when fencing pools. In answer to your question about the rule book, it depends. If you mostly fence at USFA tournaments, I would go with the USFA rule book, if not the FIE or the national rule book of where you are at.

For the most part the rule book is the same. In the past I have had to point out a rule at an International Competition that did not know French, but had the rule book from their country. I pointed to the rule, even though I did not know the language, but the rules are basically the same. For example M6 - M12 are the rules pertaining to the Foil in both the FIE, USFA and all other rule books. If you do some international also, download the FIE rule book also. At USFA tournaments, the USFA rule book applies. If you check rule T1 in the FIE rule book, you will see it does not apply to USFA (National) competitons only World Championships, Olympics and World Cups.

The one glaring exception as someone pointed out in another thread is M33. The USFA has changed the rule to match the FIE rule book, but it hasn't got into the rule book.