I see a lot of people aren't using any facts to back up their argument on what the path should be for this girl. I will.
Let's compare Women's Epee @ 2005 National Championships vs 2011 Junior Olympics. 7 of the top 10 Y10 fencers competed in both these events. If you look at the results, I don't think their coaches err in teaching them epee early.
Radanovich: 2nd Y10 Epee - 3rd at JO (A2011)
Young: 3rd Y10 Epee - 70th at JO (A2011)
Parma: 3rd Y10 Epee - 30th at JO (C2011)
Bichette: 5th Y10 Epee - 14th at JO (A2009)
Peterson: 8th Y10 Epee - 18th at JO (B2011)
Niklinska: 9th Y10 Epee - 62th at JO (B2011)
Van Loon: 10th Y10 Epee - 17th at JO (A2011)
Most of these girls fenced well at age 10 and it looks like most are fencing very well at age 16. If a girl want to learn epee and you can teach it, you better. I have heard stories in Colorado of a young Becca Ward who was fencing sabre at age 10, won the Y10 Sabre Nationals, and is now a 2 X Olympic Medalist. Talent and desire in sports can appear early. When it does, you as a coach should seize it. Some of these peopleon this board would have told Lionel Messi (soccer) to not move to Barcelona at a young age. That would have been a mistake.
Though I'm of no opinion regarding what weapon some kid in another state fences, there really isn't anything like enough data here to justify your conclusions. Based on the very little you've provided, one could argue that your chances of making L8 at JOs are far greater if you weren't in the top-10 when you fenced Y10. 7 of the 8 finalists at JOs weren't from that list. In fact, only 2 of the kids from that Y10 list even managed to get past the L32, and 2 of them didn't even make it that far. There doesn't seem to be even a correlation between early specialization and teenage success based on what you've provided, let alone any causation. One could also comfortably counter your Becca Ward example with a Mariel Zagunis (who, at 10, was fencing foil).
It could be that one could conclude that it really doesn't matter which weapon a 9 year old fences.
There is no reason why not!
While every kid is different if the student can fence foil the kid can fence épée. I have a student that age. She does very well. We started her with a " flepee" a foil blade mounted to an épée hand guard. Switched to a light 0 épée blade as her strength on control improved. She has the point control to do stop hits on the hand. She tried foil for a time and hated it. I am positive épée was the best choice for her personality. She is having fun too!
Not showing good form in this pic (toe forward!) she is fencing a rather tall kid ( bend those knees PLEASE)
Though I'm of no opinion regarding what weapon some kid in another state fences, there really isn't anything like enough data here to justify your conclusions. Based on the very little you've provided, one could argue that your chances of making L8 at JOs are far greater if you weren't in the top-10 when you fenced Y10. 7 of the 8 finalists at JOs weren't from that list. In fact, only 2 of the kids from that Y10 list even managed to get past the L32, and 2 of them didn't even make it that far. There doesn't seem to be even a correlation between early specialization and teenage success based on what you've provided, let alone any causation. One could also comfortably counter your Becca Ward example with a Mariel Zagunis (who, at 10, was fencing foil).
It could be that one could conclude that it really doesn't matter which weapon a 9 year old fences.
Yes, this is just a snap shot of two tournaments. But 5 of the 7 fencers made the top 32 at the strongest National tournament of the year Cadet (U-17) age group (not 2 as you report). The other two could have off days since they are both A/B level fencers. 3 of these fencers hold the highest rating in US Fencing at age 16. My point is:
1. Y10 fencers who can fence at a high level, continue fencing till age 16, have high level coaches are going to be good to great fencers. Zagunis just proves my point no matter what weapon she was fencing when she was 10.
2. Early specialization in epee did not hurt these fencers and likely help them achieve high level results in a much harder and bigger epee event 6 years later.
To the coach who started this thread. My recommendation is to try her in epee. See what happens. Just keep her happy and keep her fencing.
Yes, this is just a snap shot of two tournaments. But 5 of the 7 fencers made the top 32 at the strongest National tournament of the year Cadet (U-17) age group (not 2 as you report).
You should reread my comments. You've misunderstood them.
Y10 fencers who can fence at a high level, continue fencing till age 16, have high level coaches are going to be good to great fencers.
There is no such thing as a Y10 fencer "who can fence at high level". Claiming otherwise is perverse.
The data you present does not support your claim that being a successful Y10 fencer will increase one's chances of being successful later on.
Look at the numbers.
From the Y10 group:
30% did not compete in CWE at the JOs in 2011 (Did they quit fencing? Were they not able to qualify?)
10% finished in the L128
10% finished in the L64
30% finished in the L32
10% finished in the L16
10% finished in the L8
Almost 90% of the competitors in the L8 were not from the Y10 group. 80% of your group was not in the L16 or higher.
Zagunis just proves my point no matter what weapon she was fencing when she was 10.
Your claim was that the 9 year old in question should switch from foil to epee to increase her chances for top results later on. Zagunis has the best results of anyone and did not fence her current weapon when she was that age. She is therefore a counter-example. Or are you changing your position?
Early specialization in epee did not hurt these fencers and likely help them achieve high level results in a much harder and bigger epee event 6 years later.
Since you were the one criticizing people making claims without facts to back them up, I hope you have some facts to support this.
My concern is that there are so few young epee fencers....
Originally Posted by Jason
From the Y10 group:
30% did not compete in CWE at the JOs in 2011 (Did they quit fencing? Were they not able to qualify?)
In particular, to address milstdfarm's concern, did those 30% drop out of fencing because there weren't enough other youth epee fencers in their area? And would they have been more likely to be at JOs five years later if they had been Y10 foilists who switched to epee when they got older.
I don't think that we have any real information about these kinds of questions in the sport, and I think that milstdfarm was just looking for any clubs that have better than anecdotal evidence. What causes attrition from ages 9 to 12? Does the availability of local Y10 and Y12 competitions in the weapon have much of an impact?
Of course, personally, I'm probably more in RITFencing's camp on this issue. :-)
I see a lot of people aren't using any facts to back up their argument on what the path should be for this girl. I will.
Let's compare Women's Epee @ 2005 National Championships vs 2011 Junior Olympics. 7 of the top 10 Y10 fencers competed in both these events. If you look at the results, I don't think their coaches err in teaching them epee early.
Radanovich: 2nd Y10 Epee - 3rd at JO (A2011)
Young: 3rd Y10 Epee - 70th at JO (A2011)
Parma: 3rd Y10 Epee - 30th at JO (C2011)
Bichette: 5th Y10 Epee - 14th at JO (A2009)
Peterson: 8th Y10 Epee - 18th at JO (B2011)
Niklinska: 9th Y10 Epee - 62th at JO (B2011)
Van Loon: 10th Y10 Epee - 17th at JO (A2011)
Most of these girls fenced well at age 10
Yes, yes they did.
and it looks like most are fencing very well at age 16..
Not as much. I do find it interesting that you didn't list a single person that did better as a Cadet than they did as a 10 year old. I'm not saying you shouldn't compete young, but it strikes me as curious that the examples YOU pointed out are of fencers who are doing worse relative to their peers now than they were 6 years ago.
I really don't like agreeing with Jason, but DenverFencing, you did an awful job of cherrypicking data points here! If you're going to cherrypick facts to support your claim, FIND FACTS THAT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM!
To the Opening Post: Some good stuff has been said in this thread. RITfencing is right on the money with everything (not surprising.) Let her fence what she wants to fence! If I have a 9 year old, wanna know what the best way to make sure she quits fencing is? Make her fence a weapon she doesn't want to. If she wants to fence epee, she should fence epee. Hell, if she wants to play pirate at the fencing club, and do footwork with an eyepatch on, let her! She's got plenty of time. Let the kids have fun...*
*Disclaimer, I do coach kids who compete at a high level. I'm not saying kids can't seriously train, but there should be more to a 10 year olds life than whether or not they win Y10 Nationals...
Since you were the one criticizing people making claims without facts to back them up, I hope you have some facts to support this.
Here is the data I guess you want. Of the top 10 fencers who fenced the 2005 National in Girls epee:
2 have quit. The winner never achieved the close to the same results again and the 6th place never fenced another National tournament. The rest of the 8 fencers still fence National tournaments to this season and have won:
Youth 12: 14 National Medals
Youth 14: 14 National Medals
Under 17: 8 National Medals
Under 20: 2 National Medals
Top 32 finishes in Division I: 9
I have excluded victories in Division I-A, II, III (though they have collected medals in these events as well). Remember that these girls are now age 16-17 years old. 3 of these fencers are what I consider elite level fencers (multiple top 32 Division I finishes). 8 of the 10 fencers still enjoying fencing 6 years later, 100% medaled in Youth 12, 50% in Youth 14, and 37.5% in Under 17. I think that is reason to start them early.
This is consistent with what I see with my Y10 National Medalists. 100% have gone on to win another National medal and 80% have won National medals in the Y12 events.
Look, I think we all understand that you have business trotting tots around the United States to fencing tournaments. That's fine. People do what people do. You sell your services and parents are happy to pay. You pay your bills and life goes on (obladi-oblada). That said, your 'facts' don't hold up, and you would do well to abandon that particular system of claims as an approach to justifying your position. I don't think your position is necessarily ungrounded, but it certainly isn't grounded by the 'facts' you present.
I don't expect you to be fully versed in the mountain of material available regarding youth sports participation, development and specialization; however, I do expect you to be aware of fencing outside the United States. If for no other reason, please recognize the frailty of examining a sample derived from an absurd sample taken from a single country.
Also, I strongly suspect that your fetishization of 'facts' (specifically, in the form you choose to present) is derived from a naive understanding of science, in general. That, of course, is a story for another day.
In particular, to address milstdfarm's concern, did those 30% drop out of fencing because there weren't enough other youth epee fencers in their area? And would they have been more likely to be at JOs five years later if they had been Y10 foilists who switched to epee when they got older....
tbryan, you have skillfully brought the discussion back to my original intent. I was learning from the drifted discussion and didn't want it to end so haven't piped up until now.
Millstadt Venture Crew is a free club and for the most part the kids who fence with me are lower income. They will never be able to travel long distances to fence. My concerns center more on directing my fencers into an area where they have a chance to learn and have fun at a low cost. That means local tournaments.
My goal is keeping the kids interested and having fun and off the streets and out of trouble at least 1 night a week. Preparing them for the Olympics will have to be someone else's job in a few years.
I have not been a fencing coach for long but I've been a parent and a Scout leader for a long time. I feel like I understand kids and their short term thinking. There is no way I can tell a 9 year old that if she starts epee now, she will be ready for her first tournament in 5 years when she turns 14.
Pearce
"God is a mathematician with an eye for art"
If I was running a non-profit looking for the cheapest solution and the easiest to teach in a small market, I think you should go with epee.
1. Epee equipment is cheaper than foil. (No lames)
2. Epee rules are standard everywhere. Easy to teach. light on, you get the touche.
3. Epee scoring equipment is cheaper. (you can get old scoring boxes, make reels from bungies, pulleys, and phone cord or get buzzers). So you can electric fence cheaper than foil.
It sounds like you have foil equipment which then by all means continue with foil.
My point is that you have a rare girl. Most girls shy away from epee since you have to hold a heavier weapon and as a beginner, you get bruised a fair amount. Girls who start early in epee and can get over the initial hump are stronger for the experience and usually success long term. Since fencing is an individual sport, you want to reward desire whenever possible. I usually have people train in both epee and foil. But if you are a one night a week club, one weapon is probably preferable.
PM if you need equipment for your program since I retired working equipment from time to time.
14Likes
Originally Posted by DenverFencing
