Competitive Coaches

[eac]

Full disclosure: I tend to disagree with the vast majority of things that the quoted poster says on the grounds that,IMO, they often contain inklings of truth buried in mounds of BS rhetoric and tend to sound plausible while being misleading. However, his recent posts do seem to get likes from people I tend to consider reasonable and knowledgeable so YMMV.

If the rest of this post means that you are less foil than saber or epee or both, this could be part of the problem. Nothing I say applies to either saber or epee unless otherwise specified, and only uncertainly applies to women's foil. Frequently the biggest controversies over things I say have come because of differences between men's foil and other things, which no one recognized until much later because very few have sufficient expertise in both to see why something I said might have the aforementioned kernel of truth in MF but not in other things. I suspect, for example, that what I say about competition vs. coaching is less true in saber than in foil, based on anecdotes about strong competitors in saber mentoring other strong competitors, the relative importance of coaching in MF vs. MS, the form that coaching takes in each, etc.

I've not found the above post to be entirely the case from my own experience. While I'd agree that it's not possible (or at least virtually impossible due to time constraints alone) to be a full-time, serious, high level (for argument's sake we'll say national team level) coach while being an athlete there's a huge range between that and recreational coach.

Right. By 'successful', unless otherwise specified, I usually mean some extreme level of success; for other definitions of success, what I say is clearly false. I should make a list of these assumptions and put them in a signature.

Without listing a resume I'll just say that I have earned national medals while coaching national medalists and I haven't found the conflicts to be intractable.

Presumably not in the same events?

If your students are consistently performing around your level and you're the primary coach you pretty have no choice but to pick between their success and yours (and pretty much you shouldn't be coaching of their success doesn't come first) but if you're not at that point the answer will depend more on you and your individual situation.

Thoroughly agree.

I apologize if I've misintrepreted you, but if you are saying that if one wants to be a good coach, one should stop training/fencing/competing, I can think of numerious examples to the contrary.

'Good coach', like with 'success' above, is a relative concept. I usually define 'good coach' to mean 'winningest coach in an X mile radius' where X > 300 or so, with 'winningest' defined to mean 'would cause the best results given the chance'; I bet you would agree that it's hard to satisfy this criterion while competing for most people.

[UpAndComing]

What you seem to have avoided mentioning, is what kind of coaching you have or are receiving. It sounds like you currently aren't working with a coach (you haven't been clear on that point). So it's hard to say what sort of model you have to follow as a coach yourself.

Out of the 4 years experience that I do have I've only worked with a coach for the first 2. My recent coach who taught me the sport (was allowing me to shadow him and understand his coaching methods, rather than working with me individually) is sadly no longer with us. And while I always did have his support at The Junior Olympics every year I have been on my own, kind of coaching myself. To say the least I would say I've done a pretty good job, but I've always felt something lacking. As for what kind of coaching I am giving I teach at an intermediate 3 days a week for an hour and a half. How this works is I get students who know nothing about the sport and I teach throughout a 9week course in which we cover the different weapons, bladework, footwork, and the last week I let them all try fencing electric (Foil by the way) and after the 9 weeks is up I get a new set of kids and the cycle starts over. I promote our club this way and I invite all fencers that wish to continue fencing to come to the club to practice with us. It's these kids that I am working with the most. 2 days a week, electric bouting and ocasional private lessons. (usually once a week with each of them as I only have a handful.) Any more information you'd like to know that could help you or anyone else better understand the situation and further progress this discussion, feel free, I'm an open book.

The real question I think you are asking is what others think you should do, choose fencing or choose coaching. I say get thee to a coach, and spend some more time on your fencing.

I am 100% behind this and I have been debating about which coach I would want to work with and so far all signs point to Mauro Hamza. I've been to his club a few times (tournaments) watched several of his kids fence locally and nationally, and it seems that if I were going to have a new coach this is who I would want it to be. My real problem right now is that I am too financially unstable to afford a coach like that so I'm back to square one. :/

[Strytllr]

I think I know why I want to coach and I stand strong behind that. But obviously on my own time I have a million questions and yet no one to ask, the main reason I came to fencing.net, who better to ask than coaches and fencers from all over? I appreciate all the responses I have gotten so far. I don't think snoyone has addressed my second question though.

My question, when you find yourself fencing your student in the club, do you go all out and fence them at your best or do you pull punches in a way so that you help them work on things without letting them know (somewhat of a "silent lesson")? Can both be beneficial or either one more so than the other?

I don't really understand why you can't do both. I am a coach who also competes regularly. As I am training fencers from the ground up, I regularly tell them that I will not compete with them until they have reached a comparable level of expertise. That is a completely subjective assertion on my part that I try to keep them abreast of as they get better.

But if we are practicing in the club, I switch back and forth. Sometimes I let them know my intentions ("Look, I'm not going to hold back this time." or "Let's work on tightening some of your moves.") Other times, I don't. When I don't tell them what I'm going to do, I may actually fence them at my full skill level to get a better idea of their real skill level or I may "silently" coach them by making intentional mistakes or repeating actions until they figure out how to beat it.

Regardless of what I'm doing, whether I am in Coach mode or in Competitor mode, I am still teaching them. But I do have to be careful there. If I am in Competitor mode, I need to make sure that my actions are still just as precise and correct as if I were coaching. In this way, my students have the luxury of seeing the way actions SHOULD look at full speed (which makes them easier to copy), as well as seeing how well they work when done properly.

Remember that fencers get better by fencing better fencers. If you intentionally hold back all the time, even in practice, your students will suffer from it. And trust me, they wise up fairly fast to the realization when you're just playing them and not trying. That can be frustrating for a student who wants to know if he's getting better.

Communicate with your students...and make sure that they know how you are appraising their skills. I think you have the right attitude to be a good coach. But yes, also make sure to schedule some training time for yourself so that you can also improve. That can result in watershed moments with the appropriate students (as opposed to trickle-down learning).

Good luck!!

[D'Art]

As with most things to do with coaching, communication is the thing here. I'm planning on starting competing again after the new year, and if anyone I coach is at the same competition, then they'll be on their own while I'm fencing (or preparing to go on the piste). In my down time, I'm quite sociable anyway (as much as I can be, anyway), so they'll probably get some help if they need it. However, it's not a scenario I'll be expecting to crop up often, given that most of the folk I'll be coaching will be kids or absolute beginners, and so, not likely to be competing in the same competitions as me anyway.

As for fencing against them at the club, I'm planning on restricting that as much as possible, except maybe in a group lesson situation, where the emphasis will very much be on me coaching, rather than actual fencing them. That said, if one of them wants to fence me, and I'm in a good mood, I may get the kit on from time to time.

[Gav]

Unless you, as a coach, have a specific training goal in mind then I am of the opinion that you shouldn't fence them on the piste. It strikes me that if you do you could introduce a competitive element into your relationship that you probably don't want. As a coach, surely, your goal is to bring out the best out of your students?

Of course context is key but what message does it send to your kid if you fenced them regularly and beat them ... or vice versa. There just seems to be a disruptive note there that I'm not comfortable with.

[griffindm]

I do not compete regularly anymore. I have been coaching for many years. One of the nightmares to avoid as a competing coach would be to have your young fencers travel great distances to large competitions at great expense, to be knocked out of said event by their coach, particularly if it is very early in the DE's. Not unreasonable if you are clear about your competitive nature and frank with it to your students. It is just a particular event I try hard to avoid. Generally not an issue when you are working with Y-xx event fencers, but can become a problem as they move toward junior status.

[Allen Evans]

At a previous club I was a member of, one of the coaches regularly fenced in local competitions. At a reasonably strong event, one of his younger students beat the coach in the DE's and went on to place well in the event. The student (still a teenager) refused to be coached at this point, on the grounds that he had beaten his coach. More over, he started telling the coach's other students that they shouldn't be coached by this coach either. Needless to say, there was a lot of unnecessary drama in the club. The student eventually left the club (and the sport, as far as I know).

Part of this was the fault of the student, who was going through the "I-am-17-so-I-know-everything" phase, and part of this was the fault of the coach, who didn't prepare the student very well to face him in competition, and then didn't handle the loss very well afterwards.

The moral of the story here is that fencing against your students -- especially if you are not a terribly skilled fencer yourself -- is fraught with more than a few pitfalls. It takes more than an occasional off hand remark during lessons and training to prepare your student to face his or her coach in a competitive environment: if it should even be done at all.

A

[cattos]

There just seems to be a disruptive note there that I'm not comfortable with.

Not if students and parents fully understand (1) who is in charge from the very first lesson and (2) being a coach is the combination of athletic ability, comprehension of the 'science', and leadership/teaching sklls. A great athlete does not necessarily equate to a great coach and vice versa.

The moral of the story here is that fencing against your students -- especially if you are not a terribly skilled fencer yourself -- is fraught with more than a few pitfalls

I agree with you that proper preparation will avoid most problems.

[DangerMouse]

I've been avoiding entering this discussion, but for some reason feel that I have to.

If issues arise from competing against your students, it is symptomatic of deeper issues of respect and communication that have nothing to do with the choice to compete. The best coaches I have known and worked with either compete in the same tournaments as their students somewhat regularly, or are too old to compete anymore. A little over a week ago I attended a local tournament where a coach beat a former student/current colleague of his in the semi-final. They both beat current students of theirs in the preliminary rounds. What was the fallout? The students started cheering for the coach that beat them. The coach who won happens to have an olympic silver medal and the one who lost has 4 world championship medals. When the latter was on the French national team, the former was the coach of the team. They are now in their 40s. If one had lost to a student during this tournament do you think the student would lose respect for the coach? No. That's because the two are not related. If you provide a good learning environment for your students and they feel they are getting good ideas and training, they will respect you.

[Gav]

Not if students and parents fully understand (1) who is in charge from the very first lesson and (2) being a coach is the combination of athletic ability, comprehension of the 'science', and leadership/teaching sklls. A great athlete does not necessarily equate to a great coach and vice versa.

But why bother putting yourself into that position. Just coach your kids. You have a responsibility - be responsible.

The odd tournament for fun is fine. But if you're "competitive" that implies a certain amount of focus that takes away from your kids.

I just think they - and you too - deserve better.

And that's the last I have to say on the matter.

[Kyle.Mezzi]

First of all, let me disclose that I haven't read every post in this thread...

However, I think there is something that has been over looked...

When fencing with your students at the club, they obviously benefit from training with better fencers, regardless of classification. Yet, as many high level fencers will tell you, bouting at your club is not solely about winning or losing. It is about working on specific skills, and learning to integrate them into a bout.

To that extent, I lose to my students all the time. However, when I fence them, I am trying to work on something specific, and weave that into the bout. All to often, the only thing the students care about is the score at the end of the bout. I see two solutions for this: Fence for time only; or consistently try and be competitive with them. I find that if I consistenly score 10+ touches on them, them are more likely to listen to me when I'm trying to "coach them up" after the bout. Occasionally, those bouts turn into a victory for me, and as most coaches will tell you, students learn more when they lose a bout than when they win one.

Then end goal for this is to teach them that its better to work on a specific skill or strategy (or a set of them) and lose bouts in training, than to have to do so in competition. Or, as an old Boshido philosophy states: Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield.

[Kyle.Mezzi]

Also, the there situation here is when you encounter them in a competition.

I find, having done this more than once, you shouldn't be pulling punches. Lets face it, one of the toughest lessons for a young person to learn is that "life ain't fair". Also, a great deal of winning in this sports is based on knowing your opponent. Who knows their fencing better than their coach? If you fence them in a tournament, forcing them to get creative is a good thing.

As for spending time coaching at tournaments vs. competing...kids need rolemodels, period. If you can't spend all day talking about your previous victories (I am in this situation), it is good to go out and compete and model all those good behaviours you are trying to teach them. If those good behavious end up beating the student in the tournament, there is no better display of why they should be doing said things than an explaination "this is how I beat you".

Obviously, if you are getting paid to coach them in the tournament, you shouldn't be fencing. But from what you've said, that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Rusty]

I don't compete anymore. Frankly the hand skills used in coaching can sometimes be opposite of those needed to compete well. I fence like a coach now. I'm sure many can pull it off but not I. As for fencing with students, I do but in a purposeful way. To see how they are reacting to specific stimulus in a bout situation. This helps me plan detailed drills for the fencer in question. I am frank in telling them I don't compete anymore and my competition skills are rusty. They pay me to teach them what I know and I've had no issues. They get confidence in my skills be seeing more advanced students I've worked with. Some of my students are better fencers then me, faster, more athletic but I can still teach them and in fact beat them but beating them is not the only way of instilling confidence.
If a student advances beyond my knowledge and ability to instill improvement I will already found them alternative avenues to move them forward. My students know this and welcome that I'm looking out for them. I know some younger coaches that still have competition as a number one priority. IMO they can be good coaches but will most often become better when they are able to focus 100% on students. Are there glaring exceptions? Certainly. I am sure many will disagree with my observations. As this subject is completely dependent on the skill set of the coach, generalizations as discussed may fail to provide specific wisdom the original poster is looking for.

[Slacker]

As a fencer whose coach was internationally competitive. I would have to say most fencers respect and even admire that competitive spirit. It also makes it harder, I think, when the coach's priorities are eat/sleep/breathe fencing.
I would also say, if you want to compete, you need to find a coach who brings out the better fencer in yourself. Those lessons probably cost more than the lessons you give, so your students may or may not want to gravitate to the coach they see you using. Watching a coach lose a match is not a deal-breaker. But if you tend to your competitive self when you should be coaching your students, that is. You don't have to be a great fencer to coach, and there are courses that train coaching techniques. I suggest you look into them. They may enhance your own game, BTW.