How long should warm-up games last?

[Alexandria]

I was watching a class today for beginner epee kids - they were probably around 10 years old on average, though I think the class is for 8-14 year olds.

I was really surprised at how long the games and warm ups lasted. In a 60 minute class, 25 minutes was devoted to playing soccer, running up and down the strip, crab walks, all manner of things that really had nothing at all to do with fencing.

That seemed far too long for me. It seems like maybe 10 or 15 minutes at most should be devoted to playing games - it's not like this is a group of 5 and 6 year olds.

How much time should be devoted to playing games and warming up in a kids class?

[fdad]

I was watching a class today for beginner epee kids - they were probably around 10 years old on average, though I think the class is for 8-14 year olds.

I was really surprised at how long the games and warm ups lasted. In a 60 minute class, 25 minutes was devoted to playing soccer, running up and down the strip, crab walks, all manner of things that really had nothing at all to do with fencing.

That seemed far too long for me. It seems like maybe 10 or 15 minutes at most should be devoted to playing games - it's not like this is a group of 5 and 6 year olds.

How much time should be devoted to playing games and warming up in a kids class?

I think your assumption that these games were "warm ups" and "had nothing at all to do with fencing" is not correct.

[TBean]

I agree with fdad - these "warm-up games" are a critical to most fencing classes and I do not find that amount of time out of line. In truth they are being used to build the foundation of what will be physically required of these students as fencers, and also drains of a lot of excess energy so these kids can focus on the technical and tactical skills being taught in the fencing drills.

[jeremyb215]

As a total noob, I'm agreeing with fdad and T-Bean. A lot of the warm-ups we do in my class seem to be laying a foundation (both in the mind and body) for the lesson ahead and future lessons.
When I practice at home, my warmups aren't quite as long or involved, but I do use some techniques from class.

[Natureboy]

I'll jump in as a coach that often works with children in this age group. Alexandria's question is a reasonable one. In these days of ever tighter budgets one would like to know if all the time spent in the club is being spent with purpose. While most of the answers have been spot on, I'll expand on it a bit to give some background and also recommend some reading for those that wish to delve deeper.

When working with children in this age bracket the coach is trying to balance many things. Fitness and agility are the broad concerns addressed by these warm-ups, as well as some bonding in the group. The bonding is often missed, yet is an important part of the process. When the students are later doing paired drills it is important for them to be working together to help one another. They will do this more readily if they have formed a group by bonding through play (you even see this used at corporate retreats). The initial warm-up activities can accomplish all of this when properly directed. The primary goals are: fitness, agility training, and group bonding. The secondary goals may be: control of the energy of the group and identification of the various student's level of engagement (some need to be woken up before fencing, some need to have excess energy burnt off, etc.).

I also want to address a misconception that is rampant in our society which is that athletic ability is inborn and cannot be learned or manipulated. No one was born knowing how to do math, nor how to walk, but we learn both. We develop higher math skills through exposure and practice. The same is true for athletic ability which for our purposes here we'll call agility. This agility is a combination of (1) the ability to locate where our body is in space and (2) the ability to move our bodies in space according to a plan. The first ability (locating in space) is difficult for children because as they grow the relationship between their bodies and the space around them is constantly changing. The level of difficulty they may have with this will also vary as they mature and go through growth spurts, adolescence, etc. Active play that involves agility (soccer, catch, climbing trees, agility drills) helps them make these constant adjustments and smooth out the transitions as much as possible. Obviously the second ability, movement according to a plan, is very dependent on the first. We can't execute a movement according to a plan (like a parry with a retreat and riposte with a lunge) without knowing where all our parts are relative to one another and our fencing partner. This second part of athletic ability is also effected by the complexity of the plan of movement; fencing actions are very complex. It would be a poor class if all that was included were complex drills that resulted in 60 minutes of frustration; few adults could tolerate that!

To recap, the "playing" part of the group lesson does actually have a plan and purpose, though it is not at first obvious. I am one that does not believe that the parents need know nothing and just leave it all to us. Particularly if the fencer's goals later in life become more challenging (e.g., make it to nationals, fence at JO's, fence NCAA) the coach, fencer and parent will have to be working together. In that spirit I suggest to Alexandria, or any parent, that they read the book "Fencing: A practical Guide for Training Young Athletes" by Rob Handelman and Connie Louie. I believe you can find it at fencing suppliers such as Absolute. My copy is quite dog eared! I also offer a caveat; your child's coach may use different specific drills than the ones in this book but that's OK. There are more ways to accomplish the goal than are written down anywhere!

Good luck, Alexandria, to you and your young fencer!

[Inquartata]

Good grief, people! Why on earth would you play a game to prepare for another, completely different game?!

Do tennis players warm up by playing football?

Although I do agree with the "wear 'em out" part.

[Mr Epee]

Good grief, people! Why on earth would you play a game to prepare for another, completely different game?!

Do tennis players warm up by playing football?

Probably because you play both games with the same bodies.

You're in AZ, so maybe you can get word to Steve Nash about the inappropriateness of his skateboarding and soccer playing. ;-)

[Inquartata]

Same bodies...different muscles.

But who am I to complain about other people wasting their time?

[TrainingDummy]

How many classes are there a week? Do all the classes go like that? I would be a bit upset if my kid fenced 30 minutes a week with the rest of the time spent playing games. Granted, as was mentioned above, games DO build agility. Crab-walking and jumping drills/games build leg strength.

[TBean]

Good grief, people! Why on earth would you play a game to prepare for another, completely different game?!

Do tennis players warm up by playing football?

Although I do agree with the "wear 'em out" part.

These are children who have the attention spans of newts. Engaging them in a game that can build some of the muscles, skills, and coordination needed for fencing is very often more effective then having them stand and do drills. They are more capable of playing a game for a longer, concentrated, period of time, than engaging in a drill. When the athlete reaches a certain stage the games can then utilize the learned skills - footwork is much more fun to do playing "steal the bacon" for 8 to 12 year-olds than telling them to do lines footwork for the same 10 minutes.

[jeremyb215]

"steal the bacon"

I love that game.

[TBean]

One of my favorites too. Experienced fencers play that game exactly the way they fence.

[Inquartata]

These are children who have the attention spans of newts. Engaging them in a game that can build some of the muscles, skills, and coordination needed for fencing is very often more effective then having them stand and do drills. They are more capable of playing a game for a longer, concentrated, period of time, than engaging in a drill. When the athlete reaches a certain stage the games can then utilize the learned skills - footwork is much more fun to do playing "steal the bacon" for 8 to 12 year-olds than telling them to do lines footwork for the same 10 minutes.

Never mind drills. Even I am bored by drills. How about...fencing? Call me crazy, I think fencing builds "some of the muscles, skills, and coordination needed for fencing" better than anything else that comes to mind. No? And they want to fence, right? Or (1) they wouldn't be there, and (2) you shouldn't be forcing them to stay there. No? So isn't fencing likely to help them become better at fencing than some ball game?

Sure, other activities are good for general fitness. I do some myself. They may have a number of other tangential benefits. I also buy working off their excess energy. But improving their actual fencing? What does that better than---fencing?

[Nick]

Drills are boring sure but I think they help. I'm pretty good. Probably the best at epee ever. However, my form is sloppy. If I can clean that up I'll be pretty dangerous.

[cattos]

But improving their actual fencing? What does that better than---fencing?

Well, here is a first. I've read your posts for years, and I truly think this is the first time I've disagreed with you ... mostly. You're right ... what better activity used for training, than that activity itself?

I've been teaching elementary age kids for several years now, and as soon as they step onto a strip, they aren't thinking about the sport. They are thinking about playing as though they're in their back yard with a stick. There have never been any exceptions ... kids are kids. If I'm working one-on-one, I can easily switch them to training mode, but in a group setting ... much more difficult.

Other exercises, especially footwork and blade drills, don't provide them much of an opportunity to "play with a sword". For a few glorious minutes, they either focus on the task at hand, or they sit-out. These extra-cirricular activities foster discpline as well as teach them the proper way to do things.

Now, for the teens and adults, I agree with you. Drills and bouting are really all a coach needs, but a successful fencing business depends on one's ability to keep it interesting and "fresh". Bean bag drills, target practice, footwork games .... any releveant tool I can use to break up the routine is a plus.

[Kyle.Mezzi]

While, as a professional coach, I am definitely in favor of games like this that help build "general' athletic ability...the fact that the class only runs for 60 minutes...bothers me. In my experience, simply doing a drill doesn't really help you. Doing it correctly, and doing it well, those things help you make progress. It takes much longer to get a group of 10 year olds to do a drill correctly than it does, say a high school student with several years of experience.

So if 25 minutes is devoted to a warm-up and agility exercises, then that leaves 35 minutes for: Footwork, Suiting up, Drills, and some sort of "loose play" or controlled bouting. This doesn't seem like a very effective way to manage the time of a 60 minutes class.
Our classes run for 90 minutes: 30 minutes warm-up and footwork; 30 minutes drilling; 30 minutes controlled bouting. In my opinion, all of these things are important, but squeezing them all into 60 minutes with 10 yearolds would be pretty difficult.

[catwood1]

While, as a professional coach, I am definitely in favor of games like this that help build "general' athletic ability...the fact that the class only runs for 60 minutes...bothers me. In my experience, simply doing a drill doesn't really help you. Doing it correctly, and doing it well, those things help you make progress. It takes much longer to get a group of 10 year olds to do a drill correctly than it does, say a high school student with several years of experience.

So if 25 minutes is devoted to a warm-up and agility exercises, then that leaves 35 minutes for: Footwork, Suiting up, Drills, and some sort of "loose play" or controlled bouting. This doesn't seem like a very effective way to manage the time of a 60 minutes class.
Our classes run for 90 minutes: 30 minutes warm-up and footwork; 30 minutes drilling; 30 minutes controlled bouting. In my opinion, all of these things are important, but squeezing them all into 60 minutes with 10 yearolds would be pretty difficult.

You're right. If you only have 1 hour once a week, these 10 year olds need to be training seriously! After all, these are the kids we have to be getting ready for our Y10 National Championships soon! We can't let our 10 year old beginners waste any time in their training!

[Inquartata]

Oooh, burn.

I wonder whether the 10-year-old fencing students in China, Russia, South Korea, Ukraine, France and Italy are playing "games", or...fencing?

Foundations are important, not for "Y10 National Championships", but for later results. Without a good foundation, the castle tends to burn down, fall over and sink into the swamp...

[the ancient one]

Here is one example.

[Inquartata]

OK, touche. Though I will note that most of it looked more like conditioning exercises that "warm-up games"...