How long should warm-up games last?

[Rick Thompson]

The idea that's been tossed around here, but not really mentioned is "transfer of skills.". There are "games" that have a high degree of positive skill transference to fencing, and some that have a negative transfer, and some that have no skills in common.

A coach needs to have a plan, as mentioned. And needs to be mindful of what a game/exercise/drill brings to the athletes. When you look at it, soccer as a warm-up is not very good (I'm not judging the game itself). In soccer, very few athletes are actively engaged at any given time, and the "star" athletes tend to dominate. So weaker, slower or less aggressive athletes don't get much of a warnm-up. Now, it can be fun, and used for that purpose, but it should be known by the coach that it doesn't contribute much to fencing skills. For a warm-up, laps would be better, since all athletes are engaged to the same degree, and their level of activity is raised roughly similarly.

But laps are boring. A game of tag is better, especially if you have multiple "it" players. Stars don't dominate, and everyone gets moving.
For younger kids, or those recovering from an adolescent growth spurt, there can be a positive transfer of skills from numerous different activities. For more mature athletes, the most positive Transfer of skills comes from activities (games, drills, exercises, etc) that are fencing-like, or have some skills in common with fencing.

Many coaches, unfortunately, just pick exercises and games at random, with no thought for what they do for/to the athletes. It's just an area that traditional fencing coach training doesn't address. For example, many coaches like "Simon Says" as a kids game. This game helps with NO appreciable skills for the kids. again, it might be fun for the kids, and that's a reason for doing it, but a coach that thinks it HELPS with any fencing skill hasn't really thought about it.

Ok. Stepping off the soap box now. This is just a topic close to my heart. I'm finally converting my Maitre d'Armes thesis (on games) to a book and website.

[jkormann]

We've found warm-up games are good as a gathering activity and shouldn't take more then 10 minutes into the normally scheduled time. Then 3-5 for stretching, then start lessons.

[Slacker]

As someone whose club did 25 minutes of footwork, 25 minutes of drills, 25 minutes of related activites( one whole summer it was badminton), then the balance of the time fencing, I asked myself the same thing: why am I driving an hour to play badminton as long as fencing? I'd rather just..fence. I see the value of footwork, and I see the value of drills, and it would be totally awesome to work on quick reaction drills like the video clip above, but I think mixing it up a bit is appropriate.

[catwood1]

For example, many coaches like "Simon Says" as a kids game. This game helps with NO appreciable skills for the kids. again, it might be fun for the kids, and that's a reason for doing it, but a coach that thinks it HELPS with any fencing skill hasn't really thought about it.

Michael Marx would likely disagree with this. I do too, but I'm a nobody.

[Foil.Leicester]

Do tennis players warm up by playing football?

Yup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VxNZJYl3hw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZEnMByMdVQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY82vDDHcQk

[Inquartata]

That ain't football, bub.

[catwood1]

Yes, and if someone said "tennis players warm up with soccer" Inq would of been the first one to... agree with him?

[Inquartata]

Also, publicity stunts are not "warm-ups".

[Zelda]

Well, nice to see certain people (Love you Inq, missed you heaps) still like a good discussion. For everyone saying 60 minutes is too short, you got to work with the time available. I was doing 45-60 minutes for a group of 8 - 16 yo for the simple fact that was half of the time we had the hall for, it was an evening class and middle of the week. It was the ONLY time we had the hall during the week.
I used to do about 10-15 minutes warm up (running, stretching, footwork), 20-30 minutes controlled bouting (depending on who was there on any given week, the attention span of the group etc) and the rest with fencing games (pac man, king of the mountain, six fingered man etc). The kids had fun, I had fun and they really did improve. If they wanted to stay and bout afterwards they could, but I was honest and told them if they wanted to get ahead quickly, to seek private lessons from the other coaches, as I was not confident doing them.
I think you need to look at what the class as a group wants to do....do they just want to learn to fence because its an interesting sport? or do they want to be really competitive and take over the world? Depending on the temperament of the group you develop lessons that fit.

[Inquartata]

The Legend is back!

[pillow]

I second that.

[Delta]

A smart coach will call them "warm-up games" because smarter children will know they are not really "games" unless you put "games" at the end of it. lolz. I've often found myself a crab on a stinky gym floors wondering why coaches called things games when it really seemed like awkward reenactments of difficult animals. Crabs?! Why not sloths?

In all seriousness, I will add that I am/was one of those fencers that improved with drills, especially for tighter technical skills. To bout all the time means you can overly rely on an already developed skill, or even bad habits. Bouting can make deliberate actions for preparing for a better game more difficult/ slower in an overall progression of the fencer in the long run unless it's controlled bouting. But hey, to each his own.

All I need is some of those Italian kids from the video at my club to inspire some spark in the lives of others. :P

[Inquartata]

Why not sloths?

That's only for the epeeists. Ba-dum-pum!

[TBean]

Many coaches, unfortunately, just pick exercises and games at random, with no thought for what they do for/to the athletes. It's just an area that traditional fencing coach training doesn't address. For example, many coaches like "Simon Says" as a kids game. This game helps with NO appreciable skills for the kids. again, it might be fun for the kids, and that's a reason for doing it, but a coach that thinks it HELPS with any fencing skill hasn't really thought about it.

Ummm, Simon Says played with footwork helps and is fun ... that is the way my coach coach always plays it. Then there is the variation with hand signals ... hands mean one thing, voice says another ... you as the player are only following one of those directives, usually the hands ... so you are practicing footwork and learning how to see.

[jeremyb215]

Ummm, Simon Says played with footwork helps and is fun ... that is the way my coach coach always plays it. Then there is the variation with hand signals ... hands mean one thing, voice says another ... you as the player are only following one of those directives, usually the hands ... so you are practicing footwork and learning how to see.

Love that version of the game. It clues me in on what my level of focus is.

[Delta]

Hate that version of the game. It clues me in on what my level of focus is.

In all seriousness, it is fun and challenging at all levels.

[Rock]

The idea that's been tossed around here, but not really mentioned is "transfer of skills.". There are "games" that have a high degree of positive skill transference to fencing, and some that have a negative transfer, and some that have no skills in common.

A coach needs to have a plan, as mentioned. And needs to be mindful of what a game/exercise/drill brings to the athletes. When you look at it, soccer as a warm-up is not very good (I'm not judging the game itself). In soccer, very few athletes are actively engaged at any given time, and the "star" athletes tend to dominate. So weaker, slower or less aggressive athletes don't get much of a warnm-up. Now, it can be fun, and used for that purpose, but it should be known by the coach that it doesn't contribute much to fencing skills. For a warm-up, laps would be better, since all athletes are engaged to the same degree, and their level of activity is raised roughly similarly.

But laps are boring. A game of tag is better, especially if you have multiple "it" players. Stars don't dominate, and everyone gets moving.
For younger kids, or those recovering from an adolescent growth spurt, there can be a positive transfer of skills from numerous different activities. For more mature athletes, the most positive Transfer of skills comes from activities (games, drills, exercises, etc) that are fencing-like, or have some skills in common with fencing.

Many coaches, unfortunately, just pick exercises and games at random, with no thought for what they do for/to the athletes. It's just an area that traditional fencing coach training doesn't address. For example, many coaches like "Simon Says" as a kids game. This game helps with NO appreciable skills for the kids. again, it might be fun for the kids, and that's a reason for doing it, but a coach that thinks it HELPS with any fencing skill hasn't really thought about it.

Ok. Stepping off the soap box now. This is just a topic close to my heart. I'm finally converting my Maitre d'Armes thesis (on games) to a book and website.

I tried to simply say "like" and add my name by hitting that word in the post, and I got a page of gobbledegook.

Anyway, this is the best post in the thread so far.