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Thread: Unusual grip at Cartel Escrime

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    Senior Member EldRick's Avatar
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    Unusual grip at Cartel Escrime

    Here's a different sort of grip: http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...roducts_id=274

    Anyone know whether Is this for sabre, or a borderline-legal foil/epee grip?

    http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...gnees_prat.jpg
    Creator of the Sintered Tungsten Pommel - http://leonpaulusa.com/acatalog/Tung...ed_Pommel.html

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    Senior Member erooMynohtnA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EldRick View Post
    Here's a different sort of grip: http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...roducts_id=274

    Anyone know whether Is this for sabre]
    Yes..
    >:U

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    Senior Member migopod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EldRick View Post
    Here's a different sort of grip: http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...roducts_id=274
    ....or a borderline-legal foil/epee grip?

    http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...gnees_prat.jpg
    Not even borderline legal for any weapon either.
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    Needs to get Outside Inquartata's Avatar
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    I'll bet they weren't designed by a sabre fencer. That's some proselytizing foilist's or epeeist's work!
    Use the Shift key, people! Keyboard manufacturers everywhere are ineffably saddened when you ignore what they made just for you!

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    Senior Member Mergs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by migopod View Post
    Not even borderline legal for any weapon either.
    OK, I'll bite. Why not legal for saber? Foil and Epee I get, but saber - what's your rationale?
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    Senior Member migopod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mergs View Post
    OK, I'll bite. Why not legal for saber? Foil and Epee I get, but saber - what's your rationale?
    I'm working from the 2008 rules here, so it's possible that it might have changed, but the language stating that the grip (or glove) including any device or attachment that fixes the position of the hand on the grip etc. is headed "Characteristics Common to All Weapons"* and does not appear to exclude saber to me.

    Am I misinterpreting?

    * Of course an argument could be made that saber is excluded since we all know it's not really a weapon.
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    Senior Member Mergs's Avatar
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    So, how would you hold this grip in more than one way if it was mounted on a saber?
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    Senior Member erooMynohtnA's Avatar
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    With ease?
    migopod likes this.
    >:U

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    Senior Member migopod's Avatar
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    Pretty similarly to how I'd hold it with an epee. With a finger or three outside the guard and use it to execute stop-thrusts to the cuff. The extra inches with current lockout time would probably be pretty useful, and a point-forward sort of hand position would protect the fingers that remain outside the guard.
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    Senior Member Mergs's Avatar
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    Eh, not seeing the difference between what you describe and what you can theoretically do with a current saber grip now. A french grip gets around this rule because it doesn't 'fix' the hand in more than one position, although it could be argued that by pommelling the grip, you violate the 2cm thumb to guard rule.
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    Senior Member erooMynohtnA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mergs View Post
    Eh, not seeing the difference between what you describe and what you can theoretically do with a current saber grip now. A french grip gets around this rule because it doesn't 'fix' the hand in more than one position,
    How does a standard saber grip fix the hand in a way the French does not?

    although it could be argued that by pommelling the grip, you violate the 2cm thumb to guard rule.
    A French grip? No. The grip in question, yes, which is why it wouldn't be legal.
    >:U

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    Senior Member migopod's Avatar
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    The point being that while you could hold a standard saber in this way you couldn't take advantage of orthopedic protrusions while doing so which you could with the Cartel grip, so in my interpretation of the rule is that for all weapons a grip must either not have orthopedic protrusions (French and conventional saber) or fix the hand in one position with the thumb no more than 2 cm from the guard.
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    Senior Member downunder's Avatar
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    obviously this grip does not comply with either the spirit or the letter of the rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EldRick View Post
    Here's a different sort of grip: http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...roducts_id=274

    Anyone know whether Is this for sabre, or a borderline-legal foil/epee grip?

    http://www.cartel-escrime.com/catalo...gnees_prat.jpg
    If you click the second link you can see a bigger picture of the grips which show a groove cut for the wires to feed through against the guard. So I don't think this is for sabre.

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    Senior Member migopod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by milstdfarm View Post
    If you click the second link you can see a bigger picture of the grips which show a groove cut for the wires to feed through against the guard. So I don't think this is for sabre.
    http://www.poigneeprat.com/
    referenced previously in this thread
    It looks like it's intended to be used on all three weapons and claims were made that it is legal for use within the FFE (possibly just U14), but I don't know to what degree the French materials rules differ from FIE or USFA rules on the matter.

    It would certainly be deemed illegal for competition on all three weapons in the US or FIEish rules sets.
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    Senior Member Mergs's Avatar
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    I don't disagree that for foil and epee it would be illegal, I'm just interested in the implications for saber. Would have to get one and mount it on a saber to actually see how it could be held. Maybe even fence a few bouts.........any takers?
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    Senior Member erooMynohtnA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mergs View Post
    I don't disagree that for foil and epee it would be illegal, I'm just interested in the implications for saber. Would have to get one and mount it on a saber to actually see how it could be held.
    You're really having trouble with the implications for saber? Imagine it's a foil and you're holding it illegally. Now imagine that it's a saber and you're holding it the same way. Voilą
    >:U

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    Two things... looks like a very straight Gardere grip by LP, which not surprisingly I am a fan of(goofy grips!!!)

    Secondly I am ashamed of F-net that I was the first to notice 'prat' on the grip... which makes me not a fan of this grip.

    Prat.. eek!

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    Senior Member migopod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatfencer View Post
    Two things... looks like a very straight Gardere grip by LP, which not surprisingly I am a fan of(goofy grips!!!)

    Secondly I am ashamed of F-net that I was the first to notice 'prat' on the grip... which makes me not a fan of this grip.

    Prat.. eek!
    Second
    Saber Pistol Grip?
    Quote Originally Posted by DHCJr (Quoting Dan DeChaine)
    I have seen this handle and just a few days ago I told Bruno Royer (owner of Cartel) that it was illegal. He was not happy, but there it is. It is just a reworked Gardere, with all of the same characteristics -- and problems. The name on the side is PRATT, I will not stoop to making the obvious pun.
    Last edited by migopod; 07-07-2011 at 12:11 PM.
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    Senior Member SJCFU#2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by migopod View Post
    Just to give credit where credit is due (something I'm certain Donald would insist on if he were here), the portion of his post which you've quoted was itself a quote from the response which he received from Dan DeChaine following his own inquiry as to the legality of this grip.

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