Knee Injuries

[Bill MacLean]

I am interested in fencing and have a question about knee injuries. First some background.

I'm left handed but I do not have an ACL (Anterior Cruciate Ligament) in my left knee. I tore my ACL, MCL (medial collateral ligimant) and medial meniscus in high school football. In 1980, (I'm 39) , ACL reconstruction was still pretty unusual outside of pro and college sports. The doctor removed the cartiledge, stapled the MCL and removed the ACL. A few years later I had a second surgery, but that was just to remove little bits of cartiledge that were floating around.

My knee has been pretty stable since then, but I have been pretty sedentary. Anyway, I've always been interested in fencing, and it seems like it would be a fun sport plus great exercise.

Does anyone else out there have an unreconstructed ACL? Do you wear a brace? I would be interested to hear what people have to say.

Is there a lot of pivoting in fencing? From observation, it appears to me that most of the motion is forward and back, and involves less pivoting than, say tennis. Is my observation accurate?



Thanks for any info,


Bill

[veeco]

I don't think that there is a lot of pivoting on the front leg, which would be your left leg if your lefthanded. However fencing is kind of hard on your knees. Especially if you don't have a meniscus, you might feel some pain when your starting to learn how to lunge. Also, if you do the movements not right, I guess you would have more chance to injure yourself.

Maybe you could go to a fencing club and give it a try? Take a brace with you just in case, it can't hurt to have one. I do see people fencing with braces, so it's definitely possible to fence with one. Anyway, if you really want to try it, go to a fencing club, ask someone knowledgable to show you the footwork, and give it a try for a half hour without pushing too much, see how you feel doing it.

Of course, I am not a doctor or anything, so take all of this with a grain of salt.

[JEC]

I would advice that before you start any competitive sport in a faulty knee, conditioning is of utmost importance. I have had two left knee surgeries (but I have a reconstructed ACL). Even with condititioning and surgery, I get a large effusion if I'm not taking a high dose of NSAIDs (non-steroidals like ibuprofen, etc) after fencing while "icying" my knee for about 3 hours. In addition, I take glucosamine/chondroitin daily. A friend of mine torn his ACL but elected not to reconstruct and continues playing basketball and skiing ok without a brace. However, the key to his recovery was also a very intensive strenghtening program of the quadriceps and hamstrings, including the last 15 degrees of knee extension (this keeps the muscles of patella aligned). Like any sporting activity start slowly and pay attention to your knee (desist from further exercise) if there is pain, inflammation, more heat in your left knee than the right or an effusion. I would strongly consider being evaluated or cleared by a sports medicine physician before starting, and then about 4-6 months after you began. Regarding brace, I have an ACL brace, but don't use it but for skiing. When I fence, I have a soft elastic brace on my knee, but I don't think it does much.

[Bill MacLean]

This is a great board! I'm pleased to see two great responses so quickly.

I forgot to mention that on Wed night I did go to a fencing club class to see what the foot work was about. We did some basic things (advancing and retreating while mirroring the instructor), and so far my knee has felt good. I even got to see what a lunge looks like. It looks to me that if I do that motion properly, it will probably be okay.

I think the idea of getting an appointment with a Dr. is an excellent one, and I'm goign to follow up on that. I am interested in finding out about knee braces that would hopefully give me some support if I did something wrong.

Thanks,

Bill

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Bill: I agree with everything posted so far. I would add one thing.

As you do your footwork, pay special attention to the mechanics of the lunge. Make sure your foot is properly aligned straight ahead, so that as you lunge on the knee, it isn't being pulled at too much of an unnatural angle. Also, really watch your body position so that you stay centered over both your legs, and don't bend your torso down and out over your left leg. This will help keep from overweighting the knee...and make your lunges and recoveries back into the on guard position quicker and easier.

And on the bright side...as soon as you turn 40, you can compete again other 40-50 year-old knees in the Veteran's competitions---usually known here as Ibuprofen Cups!

Just work into it slowly, and learn your footwork well.

Welcome aboard!

[Bill MacLean]

By some miracle, I was able to get an appointment for Monday with an excellent orthopedic surgeon who has done a lot of sports work, so it will be good to talk with him. My knee is feeling fine so far, I just want to keep it that way.

Here is an interesting question:
What is the incidence of ACL injuries among fencers? If a lot of people with good knees end up with an ACL injury, this may not be the best sport choice for me.

Fencing seems like a really cool sport, so I hope I can make it work.

Thanks,

Bill

[Peach]

ACL injuries are far less common in fencers than in, say, basketball players. I've known a couple of fencers who injured or tore knee ligaments, and both times it involved a really unusual situation--one retreated backward and stepped on a reel which was in the wrong place, and one was doing a complicated bit of epee infighting when his opponent stepped on his foot while he twisted. The kind of thing that doesn't spring from fencing itself and could have happened just horsing around in any other sport, in other words.

I will reiterate what others have said: You MUST do your footwork properly if you don't want to overstress your already-injured knee. Some beginners develop knee problems for a while (NOT torn ligaments, just soreness) because (a) their thigh muscles are not strong enough to stablize the knee and (b) they insist on doing a heck-for-leather lunge which places their front knee way too far forward. A lunge should end with the lower leg at right angles with the floor and the knee even with the ankle.

It's very hard to get beginners to believe that they don't have to have a reeeeeally long lunge to get to their opponents. Trust me, if *I* can reach someone with my lunge ANYbody can.

[magma]

I just don't see why, if you have a knee injury, why fencing would appeal to you! It seems like taking an unnecessary risk? Why not swimming, which is considered to be a non-weight bearing excersise.

[JEC]

Originally posted by magma
I just don't see why, if you have a knee injury, why fencing would appeal to you! It seems like taking an unnecessary risk? Why not swimming, which is considered to be a non-weight bearing excersise.

walking is weight-bearing ... thus, stay in bed ... it's more comfortable and less risky!

[pkt]

Bill,

You've hit the nail on the head in your second post:
"It looks to me that if I do that motion properly, it will probably be okay."

And as Cpt Slo-mo wrote:
"As you do your footwork, pay special attention to the mechanics of the lunge. Make sure your foot is properly aligned straight ahead, so that as you lunge on the knee, it isn't being pulled at too much of an unnatural angle."
which sort of echos your own observation.

In addition to Cpt Slo-mo's recommendation, you should pay special attention to your lunge. My suggestion to look at the fotos at the home page of this site. Or any fotos such as those of the 2002 FIE World champs.
You'll notice that a proper lunge is done with both legs fully extended and you land on the heel with your legs straight then you sink into it.

NO TWISTING of the knees.

Land with your front knee right over your foot. This should reduce any pain or possibilty of twisting your knee.

All I've basically said is this:
Study the mechanics of the PROPER footwork then you won't go wrong.

Use video to observe how you do your foot work.

Enjoy, best of luck and welcome to the fencing fraternity. You'll love it is spite of the tone of some of us...

PK

[MiguielGuido]

Bill,

I also have knee injuries, although no where as serious as yours. About 5 years ago i tore the lateral miniscus in both my right and left knees. I had the right knee repaired and elected to rehab the left knee. So when i started fencing I had some of the same concerns as you. All i can say is that your probably gonna need som knee braces. I use Don Joy U-buttresses and they work great. I find that when i lunge the braces help to keep my feet aligned and reduce the chance of twisting. Also i spent considerable time lunging on a line to make sure that my front foot was landing in line with my back heel and it seems to have worked, For the last seven months i havent had any pain. I will tell you that the one time i tried to fence without my braces my knees hurt so bad i had to stop in the middle of a bout to put them on. Anyways i hoped this helped, and welcome to fencing.


Mig

[Bill MacLean]

Thanks to everyone for all the good info. I figure the more I hear about the experience of others, the better the questions I'll be able to ask when I see the doctor tomorrow.

To Magma, I think your question about whether fencing is a good choice for me is entirely appropriate, and I appreciate you raising it. That's one of the reasons I want to get as much info as possible. Perhaps this just isn't the thing for me, but I want to find out as much as I can before making that decision.

Thanks,

Bill

[pkt]

Bill,

...esp. before you dole oyt the serious bucks...

Good luck.

PK