Best fencing movie

[pkt]

The BEST fencing movie
I'll start off:

My nomination of the BEST fencing movie has to be
Scaramouche wih Stewart Granger as Scaramouche.

He learned the 1-2, the double' etc.
About 7 solid minutes of proper fencing from the box, to the bannister, tothe hall, down the stairs, on to the back of the row seats finally on the stage.

Most memorable line:
(something like) "The sword is like a little bird: hold it too toight, it'll be squashed to death; hold it too lightly, it'll fly away."

Then there are the samurai movies with Toshiro Mifune as the samurai and Kurosawa the director. Only the black & white ones.

PK

[Lemberg]

There's some movie I saw long time ago about a Hungarian (I beleive) sabre dude called Sunshine or something like that.... That was pretty good.

[Sabress]

The best movie without a doubt is 'The Fencing Master' by Arturo Perez-Reverte. If you have seen 'The Ninth Gate' you'll know author. It's in Spanish but it's a truly excellent film. If you can get your hands on the novel too, then go for it.

Second only to the Fencing Master is 'By the Sword'. The only modern fencing movie I know of. Is 1992 modern anymore?

[DJ Apostrophe]

I like the one where the guy's opponent goes off the strip and THEN he starts a riposte... oh wait...
-w

[pkt]

Sabress,

Thanks. I've never heard of the 'Fencing Master' one, most likely because it's Spanish...

"By the Sword' isn't that the one where the fencing master has his own fancy salle and he drives a Jag?

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0101524
4.5 stars out of 10.

Directed by
Jeremy Paul Kagan

Writing credits
James Donadio
John McDonald (I)

We actually did a demo outside the cinema when they showed this in Vancouver in 1991. We got to see the movie for free. Which was a good thing: We would have regretted it if we had to pay to see it.

PK

[Lemberg]

Sabress, "The Fencing Master" you're talking about, is it based on Alexandre Dumas's book? If yes, then it is indeed an excellent book.


There's also a lot of very good Russian/Soviet movies most of you ever heard of, where the fencing scenes are not only choreographed by real ex-olympic fencers but are also often acted out by real fencers. When filming "Three Musketeers" in mid-80's in Ukrainian town called Lvov - perhaps one of the oldest cities around (founded in 1256) and most importantly one of the very few places unaffected by ugly Soviet architecture, practically every half-decent fencer in town has participated in filming. Most got payed really well too (there's another path for career fencers!;D)

[LDR]

PK - you mean you didn't like Kurosawa's color film "Ran"? You're right, though, Toshiro Mifune in "Sanjuro" and "Seven Samurai" are always classic.

Not to sound too pedestrian, but I always thought there was some neat stuff in "princess bride."(ah, what do I know?) Didn't a maestro choreograph those scenes?

- LDR

[JEC]

Originally posted by Sabress
The best movie without a doubt is 'The Fencing Master' by Arturo Perez-Reverte. If you have seen 'The Ninth Gate' you'll know author. It's in Spanish but it's a truly excellent film. If you can get your hands on the novel too, then go for it.

Originally posted by Lemberg
Sabress, "The Fencing Master" you're talking about, is it based on Alexandre Dumas's book? If yes, then it is indeed an excellent book.

The book by Perez-Reverte has some inspiration from Dumas, but it is quite different. I have read the book in Spanish and its translation to English. It is a very good book in Spanish, but several subtleties are lost in the translation.

The english translation in Amazon

The movie was IMHO pretty decent, much better than By the Sword, but the book was better than the movie.

VHS - 1992

[S. Fisher]

My favorites,

1. Rob Roy (1995)
2. The Three/Four Musketeers (1974)
3. The Duellists (1977)
4. The Count of Monte Cristo (2002)

Those are just my favorite 4, there are many others out there that I fancy.

[pkt]

All, thank you for your contributions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lemberg, thank you for your Russian/Ukraine perspective. Here in N. america we don't get to see too many Russian movies.
Hey, Lemberg, would you have the book? If you do, may I borrow it?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

thank you, JEC for the link. Now I hve some means of getting 'The Fencing Master'. The 2 people who ranked it gave it 4/5 stars.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LDR,

Most of Kurosawa's best movies were done in B&W. The master himself shunned colour because he considered colour distract from the viewer from the story.
http://kurofan.free.fr/index.html

Eventually he went to colour because partly that's the moneymen wanted. I'm sure you know that Kurosawa could not raise themoney he needed from within Japan...

You left out one of the troika: Yojimbo.

Yojimbo and Sanjuro eventually became 'A fistful of Dollars' and 'For a Few Dollars More' - I forgot which is which. Of course 'The Seven Samurais' became 'The Magnificent Seven'. [Seven Samurai was shot in the same year as the first of the three 'Musahi' films a.k.a. in N. America as 'The Samurai - the Legend of Musashi'. I thin k it is in one of this that he picked a fly in mid-fliht with his chopsticks. If you think this is easy, try it. I have.]

'Ran' did not have enough sword fighting in it ... It was a great movie nevertheless, but not a great fencing/sword fighting movie.

The Mifune 1967 movie 'Rebellion' shows the turning point of sword to guns.

If you like Mifune then you should look at the opening of Mifune's official website:
http://www.mifuneproductions.co.jp/movie.html
and the other sites which gives his film
http://www.sprout.org/toshiro/films/byyear2.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the almost worst samurai movie was 'Heaven & Earth'. it was actually an OK movie till the charges of the calvary. they charged once, lots of dead bodies on the field.
They charged again, all the dead people were gone !!!
That's when I lost it... This was shot outside of Calgary, AB.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fisher,

I watched Rob Roy's final duel scene over and over quite a few time. Yes, it was good. The English was over-confident, and Rob Roy MacGregor was desperate enough ... bad combo for the English.

The first time I saw "The Duelists" I fell asleep. It was better the second time sround. The costumes were excellent. The fencing was good too.

I have yet to see the 2002 Count of Monte Cristo.

I think you menat the 1973 The Three Musketeers with Michael York, Richard Chamberlain and of course Raquel Welch. the opening father - son practice was a la James Bond moveis, i.e. DON'T miss it.

Good choices all, That said, have you seen my choice as THE best fencing movie?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

PK

[LDR]

PK -

Thanks for those great links to those mifune and kurosawa sites! I practiced classical kendo and iaido for quite some time, so by extension I became interested in all things samurai as well.

Actually, its my background in kendo/iaido that attracted me to sabre in the first place since the valid target areas are the same. I'm also curious to see if some of the kendo/iaido kamae ("fight stance) can be modified for sabre.

I wasn't a big fan of "Heaven and Earth" either. Great photography, but slow on the action. They say that Tom Cruises's upcoming movie "The Last Samurai" is supposed to be pretty good. I'm sure you've heard about it; supposedly Cruise plays an american military advisor sent to Japan to train the Tokugawa samurai in "modern" military tactics. Maybe Hollywood can achieve the massive scale for the battle scenes that Kurosawa always hoped for.


- LDR

[Mulligan]

Hey, how about "the princess Bride?

I loved "Rob Roy," but cmon a broad sword vs. a rapier? Even a beginner would have run Rob Roy through in seconds.

[pkt]

LDR,

I once fenced a kendoka for UBC's clubs day. I used my sabre of course. Interesting. Like I said, there's only so much one can do with a 'stick' basically.

You didn't expound on your personal comparison between sabre and kendo/iaido.

I've always been facinated by kendo, but then again, i was brought up on samurai movies... I saw 'The Seven Samurai' as a frist run movie.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mulligan,

there's a good reason why most fencers haven't mentioned 'Princess Bride' as a possible candidate for the BEST fencing movie. The sword fight in it was too theatrical for most fencers.

If you don't believe me, and if you have never seen 'Scaramouche' -1952 - with Stewart Granger, Mel Ferrer. Eleanor Parker & Janet Leigh. don't deprive yourself anymore. You most prob. have to go to one of those videophile places to find it.

PK

[Mulligan]

Yeah, I know.
But the duel was one of the most FUN duels in a movie.

I think the duel in "Rob Roy" was every bit as theatrical though. (just in a different way.)
I have not seen "Scaramouche" but have heard praise for years about the duel in it.

[pkt]

Mulligan et al,

The duel in Scaramouch was excellent in the way that:
1. You actually can see some of the 'proper' fencing moves as we sport fencers know the,;
2. The fencing did not look staged;
3. The combatants sure look like they're about to kill one another which only attributes to the actors' good acting.

I highly recommend it.

PK

[Craig]

Princess Bride is one of my favorites because of the over the top theatrical sword fight.

[LDR]

PK -

You're absolutely right: there really is only a finite amount of things that you can accomplish with a sword - regardless of the sword style.

I'm still relatively new to fencing so I'm afraid I'll fail miserably in offering any qualitative comparison betwen saber and kendo. Having said that, here are a few initial observations:

1. valid target areas in saber and kendo are the same: head, throat, chest and wrist/forearm. In kendo, a thrust to the throat is the only occassion for using the sword tip; all other movements are based on the slash/cut. In classical kendo, a thrust to the chest/stomach is also recognized, but not in modern kendo;

2. both saber and kendo put a premium on a centered and stable base for the body by properly placing the feet. Fencers accomplish this by placing their feet at 45-degree angles. In kendo, the feet are typically parallel, one-foot width apart, with the left toes in line with the right heel;

3. One fencing concept that will take some getting-used to is "Right of Way." In classical kendo, achieving "ai-uchi" (mutual death) is considered a vaild strategy. Basically, "ai-uchi" is viewed like this: if I take you down, even at the cost of my own life, I still win because you are one less person on the battlefield.

4. Retreating to maintain a safe distance will also be a new concept for me. In classical kendo, we were always taught that the safest place to be was behind your opponent. So it was ingrained in us to constantly strike and move forward. If you succeeded in putting down the person in front of you, this would also immediately place you in a position to face your next opponent as well;

5. From a mechanics standpoint, I'm curious to see if saber has something similar to the classical kendo concept of "hyoritai" - offense and defense in the same blow. For instance, say your opponent has committed himself to a cut to the head. As his blade is coming down, a classical kendoka would initiate a cut to the head as well, but would use the side of his sword to essentially skim the side of his opponents blade to deflect it off-target, while his own sword strike lands on-target. A small step to the side is also conducted during this movment to get the body out from underneath the blade's original path. I guess the fencing equivalent would be the parry/riposte?

Not very original or earth shattering, I'm sure, but still all very exciting for me.


- LDR

[pkt]

LDR,

5. In fencing it is called counter-attack with opposition (CAwO). There are many forms of CAwO. IMHO, based on my limited experience, one of the most common CAwO is doen like this:
Your opponent comes forward with a cut in tierce with the sword hand rather low and with a slow extension.
You'd counter attack with a point-in-line that closes off the opponent's line of attack and he impales himself on the PiL while your blade collects his blade which lands on the guard which protects you from the cut.

4. In fencing, the safest place is the same as in kendo. You get there by a fle'che - or flunge, But watch out for the behind the back riposte a la Rob Roy's Englishman.

3. In epee there's the double hits.

1. the diff between sabre and kendo is that in kendo the target areas are smaller. In sabre, as long as you hit the valid target it's a good hit.

I used to buy the Japanee Kendo magazine till the price got out of hand: the book store here flies all the Jpn books and mags in. 20 years ago, Kendo was CAD 10 each. That's a lot of money then.

I like the shots from all angles: front, the 2 sides, behind, and from above.

Do you know the mechanics of the cut that Sanjuro delivered in the duel at the end of Sanjuro? I don't mean the kendo action, I mean the mechanics to produce the gusher effect of that behind the back cut to the heart?

PK

[Dave]

There is always "ring of steel" which has some very good fight choreography in it, a little stagey what can you do.

[oiuyt]

Sunshine is the best fencing movie IMO, both for the swordplay and the story/movie.

-B :)