MF Sr A in Havana

[rudd]

Any news?

[ToucheVerte]

Diario de Cuba reports:

Italian Andrea Cassara won for the second consecutive Grand Prix Foil Villa de La Habana to beat 15-12 in the final by Ukrainian Rostisla Hertsyk.

Cassara, quinto lugar en los Juegos Olímpicos de Pekín 2008 y en el Campeonato Mundial 2009, pero tercero del ránking mundial, venció en cuartos de final por 15-8 al francés Marcel Marcilloux. Cassara, fifth at the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games and World Championships in 2009, but third world ranking, defeated in the quarterfinals the French Marcel Marcilloux 15-8.

El mismo Marcilloux eliminó por 15-14 al italiano Andrea Baldini, actual líder del escalafón mundial, durante la primera ronda de 32 competidores. The same Marcilloux 15-14 eliminated the Italian Andrea Baldini, the current leader in the world rankings during the round of 32 competitors.

Chinese Sheng Lei, world runner-up last year and second in the world rankings, was another favorite eliminated after losing 15-11 in his bout against El alemán Meter Joppich, monarca mundial en París 2010, decepcionó a especialistas porque no pudo pasar de la segunda ronda. The German Peter Joppich, world champion in Paris 2010, specialists disappointed because he could not pass the second round.

[Craig]

The US team took 5th place. Beat Poland 44-40 then they lost to China 45-42.

In placement rounds the US defeated France 45-41 then Korea 45-38.

The closest country from the Americas zone was Canada, which placed 14th.

Results list:

Rank Pts Name Nationality
1 64 ITALY ITA
2 52 JAPAN JPN
3 40 RUSSIA RUS
4 36 CHINA CHN
5 32 USA USA
6 30 KOREA KOR
7 28 GREAT BRITAIN GBR
8 26 FRANCE FRA
9 25 GERMANY GER
10 24 ISRAEL ISR
11 23 POLAND POL
12 22 UKRAINE UKR
13 21 AUSTRIA AUT
14 20 CANADA CAN
15 19 BRAZIL BRA
16 18 HONG KONG HKG
17 8 MEXICO MEX
18 8 SOUTH AFRICA RSA
19 8 CHILE CHI
20 8 ARGENTINA ARG
21 8 CUBA CUB

[pillow]

I certainly don't find this result, at least compared to the rest of the Pan Am Zone, at all surprising. The results from the Zonals in Reno will be a 1st place for the MF team. The real deal will be the Worlds in Catania, where our team although very good, will have to be great in order to medal. Gerek didn't fence the team in Havana, and is obviously not fully recovered based on his performance in the last 4 Senior World Cups. It should be interesting.

[heretic]

The team is very young, and with limited veteran experience; similar to the '96 WFT which did well during the WC season but had a poor performance in Atlanta. It would be surprising if the MFT did not qualify out of the zonals, but I hope someone is managing their expectations and keeping them grounded.

[pillow]

I should also note that the current MF "team" may not be the same exact guys going to the 2012 Games.

[fdad]

I should also note that the current MF "team" may not be the same exact guys going to the 2012 Games.

Does that not apply to every other team as well?

[pillow]

Does that not apply to every other team as well?

Of course, but this is a MF thread. No offense meant to any other weapons. There were many poor performances from experienced MF fencers during the last 4 World Cups, so the qualifying procedure will continue and we will see. My point is obviously that the guys who just made the Senior Team for Catania do not have to be the same fencers going to the Olympics.

[fdad]

Of course, but this is a MF thread. No offense meant to any other weapons. There were many poor performances from experienced MF fencers during the last 4 World Cups, so the qualifying procedure will continue and we will see. My point is obviously that the guys who just made the Senior Team for Catania do not have to be the same fencers going to the Olympics.

No, but going to Zonals and Worlds is a pretty big advantage. Fencers can get qualification points by finishing in top 32 at Worlds (easier than top 32 at a World Cup or a Grand Prix) and FIE points they earn at those events are used for seeding at subsequent World Cups and Grand Prix. Gerek is falling a bit behind in Olympic points but AFAIK he did make the Zonal/Worlds team and that advantage should put him back in the hunt. At this point Alex M. and Miles seem like locks. It is close between David W. and Race and will be interesting to see if Race takes full advantage of his spot on the Zonal/World team.

[pillow]

No, but going to Zonals and Worlds is a pretty big advantage. Fencers can get qualification points by finishing in top 32 at Worlds (easier than top 32 at a World Cup or a Grand Prix) and FIE points they earn at those events are used for seeding at subsequent World Cups and Grand Prix. Gerek is falling a bit behind in Olympic points but AFAIK he did make the Zonal/Worlds team and that advantage should put him back in the hunt. At this point Alex M. and Miles seem like locks. It is close between David W. and Race and will be interesting to see if Race takes full advantage of his spot on the Zonal/World team.

True, but there are are plenty of Senior World Cups and the Div I Champs before the Olympic selection date. Gerek is more than falling behind a bit. He is not back yet. Miles has not shown well in the most recent World Cups. Granted making top 32 at Senior Worlds is easier than at a regular World Cup or GP, so that bodes well for those 4 selected for Catania. As far as Imboden, who has had a great year, an Olympic spot would be super, so he should currently be talking to Gia and UND about deferrring his admission until fall 2012. Nevertheless, I think a full season of Senior World Cups through April of 2012 would be quite a challenge given his age and minimal experience.

[fdad]

True, but there are are plenty of Senior World Cups and the Div I Champs before the Olympic selection date. Gerek is more than falling behind a bit. He is not back yet. Miles has not shown well in the most recent World Cups. Granted making top 32 at Senior Worlds is easier than at a regular World Cup or GP, so that bodes well for those 4 selected for Catania. As far as Imboden, who has had a great year, an Olympic spot would be super, so he should currently be talking to Gia and UND about deferrring his admission until fall 2012. Nevertheless, I think a full season of Senior World Cups through April of 2012 would be quite a challenge given his age and minimal experience.

There have already been 4 WCs/GPs that count for selection. Next year's schedule is not out yet but it would likely have around 5 events (plus Worlds for the 4 team members) by the 4/1/12 cutoff date. Currently, Alex has a few more points than Miles. They are both way out ahead of everyone else. David is 3rd with a few more points than Race. After that there is a big drop off. Gerek is down around 6th right now, but a top 32 at Worlds would put him back in the hunt.

[pillow]

There have already been 4 WCs/GPs that count for selection. Next year's schedule is not out yet but it would likely have around 5 events (plus Worlds for the 4 team members) by the 4/1/12 cutoff date. Currently, Alex has a few more points than Miles. They are both way out ahead of everyone else. David is 3rd with a few more points than Race. After that there is a big drop off. Gerek is down around 6th right now, but a top 32 at Worlds would put him back in the hunt.

Current team points after Havana show Miles, Alex, Gerek, Race as top four, which is the team for Pan Am Zonal and Worlds. How do you get 3rd for David and 6th for Gerek? What points list are you looking at?

[fdad]

Current team points after Havana show Miles, Alex, Gerek, Race as top four, which is the team for Pan Am Zonal and Worlds. How do you get 3rd for David and 6th for Gerek? What points list are you looking at?

I am looking at events that will count for Olympic team selection. http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/doc...a_2_May_11.pdf

Group I – Sum of TWO highest points at 1-4
1. NAC Division I: December 2011
2. NAC Division I: January 2012
3. Division I National Championships: April 2012 (weight value 1.2)
4. Competitions specified in item 5-6 below if not included in Group II sum.

Group II – Sum of the FIVE highest points earned at 5-6
5. April 29, 2011 – April 1, 2012: All Senior World Cup and Grand Prix Competitions
(Maximum of TWO 33-64 results considered in Group II point calculations)
6. 2011 World Championships (Top 32 results)

Computing that points list is pretty easy.

Massialas, Alexander Sr-A, Seoul, KOR, 5/22/11 (SF=2) 3 2040
Massialas, Alexander Sr-A, Havana, CUB, 6/18/11 (SF=2) 15 1212
Total 3252

Chamley-Watson, Miles Sr-A, Havana, CUB, 6/18/11 (SF=2) 36 272
Chamley-Watson, Miles Sr-A, Shanghai, CHN, 5/6/11 (SF=2) 33 284
Chamley-Watson, Miles Sr-A, Seoul, KOR, 5/22/11 (SF=2) 10 1272
Chamley-Watson, Miles Sr-A, St. Petersburg, RUS, 6/6/11 (SF=2) 9 1284
Total 3112


Willette, David Sr-A, Shanghai, CHN, 5/6/11 (SF=2) 16 1200
Willette, David Sr-A, Seoul, KOR, 5/22/11 (SF=2) 53 204
Willette, David Sr-A, St. Petersburg, RUS, 6/6/11 (SF=2) 35 276
Total 1680

Imboden, Race Sr-A, Seoul, KOR, 5/22/11 (SF=2) 48 224
*Imboden, Race Sr-A, Havana, CUB, 6/18/11 (SF=2) 61 172
Imboden, Race Sr-A, Shanghai, CHN, 5/6/11 (SF=2) 41 252
Imboden, Race Sr-A, St. Petersburg, RUS, 6/6/11 (SF=2) 16 1200
Total 1676

Chang, Jerry Sr-A, Havana, CUB, 6/18/11 (SF=2) 26 692
Total 692

*Meinhardt, Gerek Sr-A, Shanghai, CHN, 5/6/11 (SF=2) 36 272
*Meinhardt, Gerek Sr-A, Havana, CUB, 6/18/11 (SF=2) 40 256
Meinhardt, Gerek Sr-A, Seoul, KOR, 5/22/11 (SF=2) 34 280
Meinhardt, Gerek Sr-A, St. Petersburg, RUS, 6/6/11 (SF=2) 34 280
Total 560

Getz, Kurt Sr-A, Seoul, KOR, 5/22/11 (SF=2) 37 268
Total 268

Goldstein, Jeremy Sr-A, Shanghai, CHN, 5/6/11 (SF=2) 60 176
Total 176

* Only top two 33-64 finishes are counted

[pillow]

I am looking at events that will count for Olympic team selection. http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/doc...a_2_May_11.pdf

Group I – Sum of TWO highest points at 1-4
1. NAC Division I: December 2011
2. NAC Division I: January 2012
3. Division I National Championships: April 2012 (weight value 1.2)
4. Competitions specified in item 5-6 below if not included in Group II sum.

Group II – Sum of the FIVE highest points earned at 5-6
5. April 29, 2011 – April 1, 2012: All Senior World Cup and Grand Prix Competitions
(Maximum of TWO 33-64 results considered in Group II point calculations)
6. 2011 World Championships (Top 32 results)

Yes. I realize that you can calculate the Olympic points starting with the WCs from April 29th. My point is that there are still many events to go, and that the Worlds will have a big impact on Olympic points. So even though the 4 guys I noted above are going to the Pan Ams and the Worlds, there are still too many GP I and GP II events before the selection date of April 2012. That is why I'm sure at least 2 spots will be open for London.

[fdad]

Yes. I realize that you can calculate the Olympic points starting with the WCs from April 29th. My point is that there are still many events to go, and that the Worlds will have a big impact on Olympic points. So even though the 4 guys I noted above are going to the Pan Ams and the Worlds, there are still too many GP I and GP II events before the selection date of April 2012. That is why I'm sure at least 2 spots will be open for London.

Assuming a tyipcal schedule, almost half the qualifying events are done. The current team is Miles, Alex, Garek, and Race. The only difference between that team and the curent top 4 is the addition of David and the removal of Garek. Since Garek and Race have the advantage over David of potential Zonal FIE points and Worlds FIE and USFA points, I would not be surprised if the Olympic Team was exactly the same as the current World/Zonal Team.

[pillow]

Assuming a tyipcal schedule, almost half the qualifying events are done. The current team is Miles, Alex, Garek, and Race. The only difference between that team and the curent top 4 is the addition of David and the removal of Garek. Since Garek and Race have the advantage over David of potential Zonal FIE points and Worlds FIE and USFA points, I would not be surprised if the Olympic Team was exactly the same as the current World/Zonal Team.

I'm not sure I agree. There are too many Senior World Cups that will take place between January and April. These are all SF=2 events. There is no doubt that fencers other than the four you mention can get many USFA GP II points from those events and
qualify for the Olympics based on the Senior Points list at the time of selection. In addition, although the assumption is that making top 32 at the Worlds is "easy" compared to a WC or GP--I would in no way assume that any of those four will make 32. It's not Cadet Worlds after all, where 32 is easy to make. Other than Alex and the top 16 by Race, I don't think any of the guys fenced well at all in the last 4 World Cups.

[fdad]

I'm not sure I agree. There are too many Senior World Cups that will take place between January and April. These are all SF=2 events. There is no doubt that fencers other than the four you mention can get many USFA GP II points from those events and
qualify for the Olympics based on the Senior Points list at the time of selection. In addition, although the assumption is that making top 32 at the Worlds is "easy" compared to a WC or GP--I would in no way assume that any of those four will make 32. It's not Cadet Worlds after all, where 32 is easy to make. Other than Alex and the top 16 by Race, I don't think any of the guys fenced well at all in the last 4 World Cups.

I dont see how 9th and 10th place finishes by Miles are bested by a 16th from Race.

[pillow]

I dont see how 9th and 10th place finishes by Miles are bested by a 16th from Race.

I stand corrected re Miles, you are right. However, what I also meant was that Gerek is still clearly not back from injury, Kurt did not fence like a 2-time Senior Team member, and I expected much more from Andras and Ariel, as I'm sure they did themselves.

[fdad]

I stand corrected re Miles, you are right. However, what I also meant was that Gerek is still clearly not back from injury, Kurt did not fence like a 2-time Senior Team member, and I expected much more from Andras and Ariel, as I'm sure they did themselves.

Not sure what you base that expectation on? Base on www.FIE.ch, DeSmet hasn't reached the 64 in a Senior A event since a Canadian WC 5 years ago. Horanyi hasn't made the 32 for 5 years.

[pillow]

Not sure what you base that expectation on? Base on www.FIE.ch, DeSmet hasn't reached the 64 in a Senior A event since a Canadian WC 5 years ago. Horanyi hasn't made the 32 for 5 years.

I base my opinion on the fact that technically Ariel and Andras are better fencers than someone like Caldwell or Chang, who also fenced some of the recent WCs. They are more mature and experienced, and should have been able to do better than they did. Also DeSmet beat Miles for the NCAA. As far as Kurt is concerned, I have no explanation at all for the lack of results. Therefore, I am not as willing as you are to write off all the rest of the top 12 in Seniors at this time, and would not be surprised if someone other than the 4 selected for the Worlds is replaced by someone else by Olympic selection deadline.