FIE SEMI Commission meets in Rome

[gladius]

From the FIS web site http://www.federscherma.it/news.asp?i=90669&s=7

The FIE SEMI committee held a working meeting in Rome at the FIS office.

The representatives of the FIE commission discussed items concerning the safety in saber with special emphasis on equipment and materials.

The following people participated in the working group meeting: Giorgio Scarso, FIS President and FIE Vice President, Jose Eduardo Dos Santos, FIE SEMI Commission President, Commission members, Jacek Bierkowski and Gianandrea Nicolai, Italian SEMI Commission President, Giandomenico Varallo, Italian Medical Commission President, Antonio Fiore, fencing equipment experts, Paul Barry and Frank Messemer, plus representatives from fencing equipment manufacturers.

During the meeting the international members of the FIE SEMI Commission had the opportunity to examine a prototype produced in Italy of a wireless scoring system. The preliminary reaction of the international commission members was a positive evaluation of this system which is still at the developmental stage.

[Inquartata]

No good can come of this.

[oiuyt]

I suspect they were looking at changes to things such as gloves/glove construction and the tip portion of the sabre blade.

Just what sabre needs is a red plastic or rubber cap on the end of the blade, like old-school dry foils.

-B

[Gav]

Why would they want to stop thrusting actions?

[oiuyt]

Prevention of hand (and wrist/arm) penetrations. The problem arises from a small cross-section with two corners (the edges at the sides of the blade where it curls to make the tip). Chamfering the edges has also been floated as an idea to at least remove the sharpness, if not help with the cross-section.

A metal cap of some sort might also fix that, although adding a weight at the end of a long, flexible blade seems like it would be asking for new problems.

-B

[edew]

Larger guard. I mean, back when they were using sabers to actually kill each other, the knuckle guard was created to mitigate getting fingers chopped off. When that didn't work well, they didn't ask opposing sword wielders to put a cap on the tip, they made a bigger guard.

A larger guard will make those wussy piinking of the wrist disappear, which would be better. Forces (and encourages) more parries and makes for better show.

[K O'N]

Larger guard. I mean, back when they were using sabers to actually kill each other, the knuckle guard was created to mitigate getting fingers chopped off. When that didn't work well, they didn't ask opposing sword wielders to put a cap on the tip, they made a bigger guard.

A larger guard will make those wussy piinking of the wrist disappear, which would be better. Forces (and encourages) more parries and makes for better show.

That, and the glove design could be improved quite a lot. A better glove with increased cuff overlap, maybe two layers of cuff and velcro, an indirect path for the wire to get out, improved materials, that sort of thing. If you have penetration problems of a particular weapon design through a particular guard/glove design, adding stuff to the weapon seems like by far the more awkward of the two solutions.

K O'N

[Purple Fencer]

I made am increased cuff overlap when my Armor gloves came out.

The tips of the sabres could simply be formed into a smooth ball instead of folding and chamfering...that would serve the same purpose.

[oiuyt]

That, and the glove design could be improved quite a lot. A better glove with increased cuff overlap, maybe two layers of cuff and velcro, an indirect path for the wire to get out, improved materials, that sort of thing. If you have penetration problems of a particular weapon design through a particular guard/glove design, adding stuff to the weapon seems like by far the more awkward of the two solutions.

It seems that a lot of the glove penetrations are through the leather, either in the palm or between fingers, rather than through the cuff or wire hole. It's easy to imagine that those are significantly harder locations to add protection, while maintaining the utility of the glove.

I think the likely solution is going to be changing the shape at the tip, possibly in concert with changes to the guard. I'm concerned about the addition of mass out at the end of the blade. More whipovers and, looking just at safety, a whipover with a small, concentrated mass hitting the back of the head beyond the protection of the mask doesn't seem like it would be too healthy.

Hopefully they'll get things figured out in an acceptable manner. Not looking forward to replacing all blades (and/or guards) again.

-B

[esgrima]

Larger guard. I mean, back when they were using sabers to actually kill each other, the knuckle guard was created to mitigate getting fingers chopped off. When that didn't work well, they didn't ask opposing sword wielders to put a cap on the tip, they made a bigger guard.

A larger guard will make those wussy piinking of the wrist disappear, which would be better. Forces (and encourages) more parries and makes for better show.

Interesting. Maybe something like this http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c678.html

[Stormbringer]

Interesting. Maybe something like this http://therionarms.com/reenact/therionarms_c678.html

The holes might be an issue (m.5 and m.24).

Incidentally, there were a couple of posts made some time ago (this one and this one) that raised a point with regard to the size and shape of the sabre guard, and a similar query with regard to the possibility of guards that did not fit what is currently the "typical" shape...

Your thoughts?

[Craig]

It seems that a lot of the glove penetrations are through the leather, either in the palm or between fingers, rather than through the cuff or wire hole. It's easy to imagine that those are significantly harder locations to add protection, while maintaining the utility of the glove.

This. Hard to beef up the palm of the glove and still be able to feel what you're doing with the sabre.

[gladius]

No good can come of this.

Don't be such a pessimist!

I suspect they were looking at changes to things such as gloves/glove construction and the tip portion of the sabre blade.

Great insight on your part! This was announced in the FIE Information Letter #4 on March 7 http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/2...4-11%20ang.pdf

a) Sabre : Hand and arm injuries

Several injuries have occurred as non broken blades have either pierced the glove or entered through the hole which allows the body wire to pass.

Following the recommendations of the SEMI and Medical Commissions, the Executive Committee has decided as follows:

Immediate measures:

• - at all FIE competitions, the gloves will be checked during the initial control of the equipment, as well as in the call room, in order to ensure that they are in very good condition (i.e. without any tears or significant reduction of its thickness); a control mark must be put on all checked gloves.
• - athletes will have to cover the hole through which the body wire passes, using a strong adhesive band. This taping will be checked by the referee before the beginning of the match.

Subsequent measures:

A Working Group has been set up, presided by M. Giorgio Scarso, and composed of 2 members of the Medical Commission, 2 members from the SEMI Commission, 2 manufacturers and 1 athlete.

This Group will study the possible other measures to propose including:

• - objective studies made jointly with an institute;
• - glove manufacturing standards and modifications;
• - guard modifications.

The Working Group must present its conclusions within three months.

Results will be presented at the FIE EC meeting later this month.

Why would they want to stop thrusting actions?

Prevention of hand (and wrist/arm) penetrations. The problem arises from a small cross-section with two corners (the edges at the sides of the blade where it curls to make the tip). Chamfering the edges has also been floated as an idea to at least remove the sharpness, if not help with the cross-section.

Exactly!

Credit should be given to Peter Harmer, PhD, member of the FIE Medical Commission for Australia (but also head of the USFA Medical Commission) for conducting historical analyses on the "higher than normal" occurrence of such incidents in saber. He proposed several times in the past to work on this problem as a joint effort between the SEMI and the Medical Commissions without gaining much support. This time things are moving forward and Inq should be happy that someone is watching over him or his hand... naah!

[mfp]

Hard to beef up the palm of the glove and still be able to feel what you're doing with the sabre.

The FIE will solve the problem and increase TV appeal by dispensing with the glove altogether and making the transparent visor guard mandatory in sabre.

[Stormbringer]

The FIE will solve the problem and increase TV appeal by dispensing with the glove altogether and making the transparent visor guard mandatory in sabre.

Well, then... if they really wanted to increase TV appeal, they'd go with flashier, more theatrical uniforms and segmented, layered Holtzman Shields (one set of shields with one set of settings for the valid target, another set of shields with different settings for the off-target areas).

Example 01
Example 02

Though, laser pointers would then have to be banned from every fencing venue...

[Inquartata]

Prevention of hand (and wrist/arm) penetrations.

About the only thing that might put an end to our endless PIL arguments, too...

Larger guard. I mean, back when they were using sabers to actually kill each other, the knuckle guard was created to mitigate getting fingers chopped off.

May the Schultz be with you!

Don't be such a pessimist!

Pessimism is clearly the superior attitude. If one always expects the worst, one can never be disappointed. If the worst doesn't happen, one is pleasantly surprised. If it does, one has at least the comfort of being able to say "Told you so".

Inq should be happy that someone is watching over him or his hand... naah!

Someone already is, and he bears a striking resemblance to a parrying me!

The FIE will solve the problem and increase TV appeal by dispensing with the glove altogether and making the transparent visor guard mandatory in sabre.

We could compromise on Lexan gloves.

[edew]

Inq, you got it: the Schultz guard. Should just have the basket hilt guard. That would make fencing both more interesting to watch and safer for the fencers. No more stupid attack, get parried, bounce off the guard and nick the cuff for a point. I want a saber point to be where the other guy's arm is sliced off IRL.

[Inquartata]

The sport would be short-lived.

[Craig]

Hopefully there will be some movement soon on this. Check out what just happened to Marti:
http://timmorehouse.wordpress.com/20...-ny-world-cup/

[edew]

I think Tim's a bit hyperbolic to claim someone will die due to a hand injury. Still, if it unnecessarily ends a career, what good is a badly made glove? The solution is a guard that completely protects the hand so that it is impossible to see, from the opponent's perspective, any part of the hand no matter how much twisting of the wrist occurs, while keeping the forearm pointed towards the opponent. It's perfectly doable.