Parry help

[Aoife]

Help!

When fencing my coach he does this parry which I don't know. It's pronated but held high. down across my body. He seems to take my blade very easily from this position, and I don't know how to escape it.

Thanks.

[angriff]

Sounds like a parry of prime (pronounced prim).. I could be well off the mark, but would a coupe elude it?

I'm sure others on this board would be able to give you much better advice..

[AaronK]

No matter what parry position it is, you can go around it with a disengage or coupe.
1. Keep enough distance between you both so that you can move easily. If you are getting too close it is hard to decieve a parry without breaking the arm (pulling it out of the attacking line).
2. If you want to disengage you move around the opponen'ts hand to the other side of thier weapon. If they are in a high-line position (such as 4 or 6- with the tip higher than the hand) you go under the guard. If they are in a low-line position, 8 or 6...in this case the possible 1 (or prime), you go over the guard to the other side. This may look like the same motion as a coupe around a parry 4, but a coupe must pass around the tip of the opponenent's weapon rather than their hand.

If it doesn't help, ask your coach to show you what he is doing and how to defend against it. There may be other things that are going on there besides just a parry that make it difficult to decieve.

Aaron

[magma]

Alfie!, is it just for the moment, we fence,
what's it all a-bout,
when you sort it out alfie,
are we meant to fence more than we eat?

AS SURE AS I CAN SEE,
there's a heaven above Allllllfeeeeee
I KNOW THERE"S SOMETHING MUCH MORE
something even,
non-deceivers,
can depend on,

I believe in stepping back
ALLLLLLFIIEIIEIIEIEIEIEIE
without stepping back,
we'd just get hit,
the more you retreat and wait,
the more you'll score,
Allllllfffiiiiiiieii

[Aoife]

Erm, okay then Magma

Okay, I asked in today's lesson and he said it was 'a butchered sabre parry' - which I'm guessing is parry 5 (but don't hold me on that).

If they are in a low-line position, 8 or 6...in this case the possible 1 (or prime), you go over the guard to the other side.

I don't think it could be prime because there's no way I concieve of going over his guard (he holds it very high). He's got about a foot in height over me anyway, but even then it's held high. Sort of nearly straight vertically in front of him, and it sweeps my blade away very easily (oh, and he's left-handed and I'm right, forgot to mention that! )

If it doesn't help, ask your coach to show you what he is doing and how to defend against it. There may be other things that are going on there besides just a parry that make it difficult to decieve.

And put him at risk of not mercilessly beating me (so much)?!

[pkt]

Aoife,

That explains it:
he's using Prime and Seconde to catch your blade since you 're coming in low...

Did u read my explanation of the parry/fencing positions in - Come Again?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Ah, the parry numbers.
(Assume you're a right-handed fencer)
Prime (say 'prim') is when you draw your sword from the scabbard which you wear on your left hip. Hand in pronation - palm down. Almost like kissing the back of your hand.
Seconde is the one immediately to the right of Prime. Both Prime & Seconde are parries against low-line attacks.
Tierce is third, drop your sword hand from seconde and you'll have 3rd. The hand is in pronation (palm down).
Quarte (4th) is left of '3rd' protecting the chest. Hand in semi-pronation.
Quinte (5th) is the parry against head cut or foil flicks.
Drop down the hand and you'll have Sixte (6th). 6th is like 3rd, but with the palm up - supination.
Septime (7th) and Octave (8th) are parries for low-line atacks like Prime and Seconde. I'll let you figure out which is which. Both of these are with hand in supination (palm up) as opposed to prine & seconds."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course, if you go to the Glossary section of this web site, you can get the 'official' fencing.net explanaion so you know which parry your coach used on you.

My maitre d'armes kept reminding us in foil not to use prime & Seconde, can't get back to sixte or quarte. It's much more effective to use sixte and quarte.

PK

[Aoife]

Thanks pkt!

Prime (say 'prim') is when you draw your sword from the scabbard which you wear on your left hip. Hand in pronation - palm down. Almost like kissing the back of your hand.

Yes yes, that sounds like it. How would I escape that? (other than hitting higher?)

[veeco]

Originally posted by Aoife
Thanks pkt!



Yes yes, that sounds like it. How would I escape that? (other than hitting higher?)

Hit lower! Basically when your coach is going for the prime, evade his parry with a circular motion, with your blade going in the same direction as his.

As far as the target goes, since he is left-handed, and since, fencing foil doesn't give you the immense pleasure of hitting someone's foot, I would advise to hit his flank, since a parry prime opens it a lot and it's quite hard to parry an outside low line once you have taken a prime.

[veeco]

Originally posted by pkt
My maitre d'armes kept reminding us in foil not to use prime & Seconde, can't get back to sixte or quarte. It's much more effective to use sixte and quarte.

Err, I guess he must have been speaking of a particular situation, because it is possible to go from 2nd to sixte and quarte. As a matter of fact, as a lefty, I do it all the time.

From 2nd to sixte you just basically lift your point up and supinate your hand and you're there;

for 2nd to quarte you just lift your hand up and to the outside, though in foil it will usually be a circular transfer, so you can sweep any steel that's staying the sixte area as a bonus.

[edew]

Originally posted by pkt
Aoife,

[...]
My maitre d'armes kept reminding us in foil not to use prime & Seconde, can't get back to sixte or quarte. It's much more effective to use sixte and quarte.

PK

Feel free to remove two very good parries from your repertoire. Most flick attacks can easily go around a quarte parry, but will be stopped by a prime parry.

In many lefty-righty situations, the seconde parry will kill any low-line attacks to the flank. An octave won't work as well as a whipping seconde.

Primes are used as yielding parries against flicks to the chest. Those attacks to the chest will not be parried (in most cases) by a quarte.

As for going from prime to sixte or elsewhere, just do it right and quickly. Practice, practice, practice.

The riposte from a prime parry is also quite deadly, as it comes in from an odd angle. Almost impossible to stop.

[kini mini]

Originally posted by edew

The riposte from a prime parry is also quite deadly, as it comes in from an odd angle. Almost impossible to stop.

Sorry to go off at a tangent, but I just though I'd ask - when riposting from prime, I nearly always seem to hit my opponents in the lower abdomen or groin. I riposte with what I think is a reasonable amount of force but guys do get hurt. Am I going too low? I'm 183cm (about 6 feet) tall so most people I fence are shorter than me, if that has anything to do with it.

[Aoife]

when riposting from prime, I nearly always seem to hit my opponents in the lower abdomen or groin.

lol, ditto here. That's my main problem riposting from that parry, when I manage it I tend to hit his groin. Whoops.

[Boo Boo]

Aoife, when I reposte from prime, I sometimes jump with the hit (means that your point should land a bit higher). I assume that Aoife is fairly petite like me (I am just under 5'4"). I guess this might work for Kini Mini, too, but I can't imagine why you are having the same problem at your height...

Boo

[angriff]

Originally posted by Aoife
lol, ditto here. That's my main problem riposting from that parry, when I manage it I tend to hit his groin. Whoops.

Guess the angle your blade makes with the ground is too big.. the riposte should be like about 45 - 60 degrees slanted? I assume you use a pistol grip, so with your hand in prime position pull hard with your middle finger so your blade slants more.. that way your opponents will crash into your point belly first, leaving their family jewels unscathed

[AaronK]

<<continuing with the off-topic discussion>>

If you guys are having trouble riposting from 1, it may help to aim with your thumb. The blade (if your weapon is asembled properly) should comfortably be pointing in the direction of your thumb. I tell the people I coach to "hit me with thier thumb" as this rule works no matter what position their hand is in.
Take a look at how your weapon is put together, your thumb should be pointing in the direction your weapon is aiming.

This is implying that the opponent is doing nothing to obstruct or hinder the parry, which would be another whole discussion.

Whith a French grip this may apply, depending on how you hold your weapon, with the traditional grip this is true. One of my Epee fencers holds his epee with the "Triangle grip" (This was taught to him by a French fencing master before he took lessons from me). This grip has the index finger resting along the side of the grip, and the middle finger underneath the weapon. Everything else is normal. In his case his index finger is pointing toward the target and I tell him to poke me with his finger (which works just as well).
Aaron

[edew]

What makes the prime riposte so deadly is not that it's frequently aimed at the gonads. The deadliness of the prime parry-riposte is that there's very little effort needed to make the riposte. You just make the parry and then just turn your wrist a bit and you got the person hit. There should be no thrust required, and it's quite possible to hit the opponent in the upper chest region.

I'm not a tall person, 5'7", and I can even hit tall people in the mid-chest region by doing nothing other than twisting my wrist clockwise (I'm lefthanded).

Of course, the situation requires that you and your opponent are close enough to make that sort of riposte. But that assumption is also made when you describe jabbing the poor sod in the twigs and berries.

If the distance is far, you might not be able to make a successful prime parry. Although, there is a wicked lefty-righty prime parry made at a distance that again requires zero thrusting with the riposte. You basically stick your arm out in an elongated prime position (blade is more horizontal than vertical), let the opponent's flick energy dissipate along the blade, and use that energy to whip your blade into his chest. I get hit with that so often it's not even funny.

In some long-distance situation, the prime parry is followed by any various sort of disengaged riposte. You can't do a straight riposte from a long distance and expect to hit, since your opponent will have some chance of parrying it. So, it's prime followed by a flick to the shoulder, or prime, disengage back to a thrust to the chest, possibly with an additional disengage around any second attempt at parrying by the opponent.

[pkt]

edew,

I understand the berries bit but twigs? shouldn't it be just twig? singular. OH, youmean the legs...



PK

[pkt]

Kini, Aoife, Boo Boo, Angriff, et al,

Hey, remember? In foil and epee the groin is valid target! Not in sabre...

If your opponant come in low, they have to expect being hit low by the riposte.

How low can you go?

To remedy hitting too low in your riposte, and if you want your opponant to remember your riposte...
when you're in close:
take parry prime in a circular fashion, lift up the hand to almost full extension over your head and then plunge it down.
If you can time a jump after you've taken the blade so much the better.
OUCH !
Be careful, in foil you might break your blade!

Guys, wear a cup if you do a lot of low-line attacks!!!

Anyone for weiners on the barbie?

PK

[darius]

Guys, wear a cup if you do a lot of low-line attacks!!!

Don't you mean wear a cup if your opponents do a lot of low-line attacks?

Or is your blade just *that* flicky?

darius

[pkt]

darius,

I was writing to Aoife, Boo Boo and kini.

I don't think Aoife, Boo Boo and kini need to wear cups...
Angriff may...if I guessed correctly.

the "guys..." bit was an aside.

I think the riposte I described would cause a lot more 'harm' than an attack would. I did that once and broke my foil blade... .

PK