02-26-2003, 10:41 PM
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#21 | | Quit (no longer with us)
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa
Posts: 1,307
| this took 1/2 hour to write/not a rant
People can be easily convinced to join splinter groups or fringe groups. One of the reasons for conflict is fighting over resources even within a nation. It's plain that you believe you have the answers, but I think you're missing a few points. One being that probably 9/10th of the world doesn't live like you or I, they're living in disease, poverty, hunger and so forth. Leadership is almost always coming from wealth, and most of it not well gained wealth. We lost alot of businesses, in my area, hundreds of men and women lost their homes and went into foreclosure; in the mid-west, the farms went bankrupt and people sold their farm equipment on front lawns, these were not stupid people, they had the right background for their work; they were bought out by big business who wanted to make Corporate Farming for big industry. It's not entirely paranoid to say "the country is being run by big business".
The men who train in the hills for some religious 'right', aren't very much different from the militila who run around in our hills doing very much the same thing. The Unibomber is exactly the type of person I'm talking about. They have very much the same personality makeup.
The thing that iritates me, is when I'm mistaken for being some kind of Corporate Glamour person. I know that dissatisfied people want to blame others for things like a tube of lipstick, however, I'll throw away my lipstick when you all throw your Mercedes away, and when everyone tosses their briefcases away. I had someone try to attack me on a public bus on the leeward side of the island, because he thought i was a 'wealthy tourist', he made me sick. There he was, yelling about the bible and trying to strike me on public transportation, he viewed me as being Non-authentic, not a genuine native; marring his view of his preconceived notions of the "land". What is this fear reaction based on?
It's: +seeing a huge diconomy of wealth and poverty side by side + the 21st century paranoia that has almost ebbated + loss of revenue+less opportunity+competition between all the huge populations of people.
I think that we probably agree more than we realize, but the issues are too complex to describe fully. Look forward to reading your next reply. | 
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02-26-2003, 11:06 PM
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#22 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 698
| Maybe we'd agree if ever we could figure out what was coming out of your mouth.
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It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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02-26-2003, 11:18 PM
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#23 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NYC
Posts: 133
| "DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH?" -- C. Tucker, Rush Hour (1998)
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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. -- B. Russel
Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings, however, is justice. -- H. L. Mencken
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02-26-2003, 11:20 PM
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#24 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 698
| Yes!!
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It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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02-27-2003, 02:32 PM
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#25 | | Quit (no longer with us)
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa
Posts: 1,307
| Quote: Originally posted by Dav3ey
"DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORDS COMING OUT OF MY MOUTH?" -- C. Tucker, Rush Hour (1998) |  | |
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03-03-2003, 11:50 AM
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#26 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amherst, MA and Franklin, MA
Posts: 2,485
| I'm confused
This started off as a thread about an unrealistic society. The thread was fun to read also. But evbery now and then magma and 135711 make an arguement, and I have NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. Being attacked in a bus stop has notihng to do with the thread. I have enjoyed reading this, but every third arguement or so seems to be as if you clicked the wrong thread to post your reply in. I dunno if this is just me, but it seems as if swordsman thinks the same way.
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-Kevin
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03-03-2003, 11:52 AM
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#27 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Gulf Coast Division
Posts: 2,414
| Oh well, if it bothers you, then move on to the next post. I do that fairly often when a particular set of posts within one thread does not pertain to my interests or something to that effect.
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... without remorse for the past, confident in the present, and full of hope for the future, [d'artagnan] went to bed and slept the sleep of the brave.
- The Three Musketeers
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03-03-2003, 02:41 PM
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#28 | | Quit (no longer with us)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 40
| in a utopian society, you wouldn't be attacked on a bus, that's what a utopia is! it means that the vast majority of the population are living in harmony together, each person able to co-exist with another person without harming them. Philosophy classes make you write utopian essays. Try writing one, they're IMPOSSIBLE!  | |
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03-03-2003, 05:28 PM
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#29 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 698
| Utopia - where's the fun in that? What would you discuss? Couldn't even talk about politics. Arts and sciences, I suppose. Sports would be tough - because in a true Utopia, could anyone ever lose?
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It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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03-03-2003, 06:45 PM
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#30 | | Quit (no longer with us)
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa
Posts: 1,307
| win/loss
I don't believe there's a conflict in win/lose in utopia, if you believe that utopia means some sort of a state of mind in which citizens drift aimlessly, without any sence of urgency to compete then that may be a misconception.
Maybe anger could be looked at again, maybe what is healthier is a self directed anger at a general lack of ability to win a certain bout. Not directed outwards. It can be justifyable to be angry with others if, for example, they cheat at the sport, steal from you, or whatever, in that case, if it's rampant in the sport, the sport itself needs some re-examination. That's why I sometimes say, 'wait a minute, I don't think it's you, or you, or you, I think it's the way something is set-up, what could it be?" That's the other reason I mentioned having annual conferences held at the hotels where your competitors stay for Nationals, but someone jumped in and complained about fencing at a hotel. It goes on and on. | |
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03-04-2003, 12:06 AM
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#31 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amherst, MA and Franklin, MA
Posts: 2,485
| ----sorry----
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-Kevin
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03-04-2003, 12:07 AM
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#32 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amherst, MA and Franklin, MA
Posts: 2,485
| Quote: Originally posted by Swordsman
Utopia - where's the fun in that? What would you discuss? Couldn't even talk about politics. Arts and sciences, I suppose. Sports would be tough - because in a true Utopia, could anyone ever lose? | I agree it would be very boring indeed. What would be the point of the water cooler, we would not even be having discussions such as these.
I don't want to sound to cliche, but how unrealistic is it? EVeryone is in harmony, wow, great, way to squelch the drive of the individual. Not that I agree wth all of Thoreau, but maybe Utopians neeed to read some of his works, or maybe Emerson's "Self Reliance"? Just to balance the scale so they can formulate a society that would actually work?
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-Kevin
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03-04-2003, 04:32 PM
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#33 | | Quit (no longer with us)
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Posts: 1,307
| About the Utopia thing, the classic arguement was then and appears to be now; can some people handle it? What kind of person would be dissatisfied if the population were able to co-exist together?
An exaple of a pretty close Utopian Society is Japan. Japanese people, in Business will agree with one another, they aren't kidding around and they aren't pretending to agree. They genuinely see and understand one another's point. They may not carry out your plan or idea, but they will politely agree that your point of view is well taken, and even applaud it. It's taken centuries to get just right, but they have it down now.
It has to do with Invidivualism vs Society. Can you do things the way others do them? Or do you have to do things your way? Can you handle it when other people do things their way, or do you have to have people do things your way? Eventually all societies go through these growing pains, until we all agree together that doing something a certain way is generally best for everyone. This does not mean that you would not be able to do something for example like: produce a peice of artwork. However, whether or not you would be able to display the artwork in a public park may be another story, it would have to be agreed upon.
To understand more about Utopia read John Stuart Mill, and the Greatest Good theories - What is best for the Greatest Good in society? Your rights, My rights or Our rights.
Last edited by 135711; 03-04-2003 at 04:34 PM.
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03-04-2003, 05:30 PM
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#34 | | Just Joined
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 15
| Quote: Originally posted by Swordsman
we may well have been wrong to establish Israel, interfere with the pitiful ways of lives in the middle east (yes, they were at least as despicable before we went in), etc. Fine.
It IS the error of his ways. And they need to be fixed, by us if no one else is willing to. Sometimes, you just have to stand up for what's right. And that's what just pisses me off anymore about all the simpering, spineless, everybody's-right-let's-all-get-along cowards who are afraid to judge lest they be judged, let alone do something about it!! They are all over and always have been, but now they are taking control!! And you know what? The whole world's going to hell for it. Thank GOD we've still got some leaders like Bush, Blair, the Italians' president, and hopefully others I just don't know about, to keep things from going too far too fast!! | Speaking of pitiful ways of lives, i don't know of crack being smoked in the streets in the middle east. This will still happen in the US long after Israel and the Palestinian State have a common soccer league.
It's thanks to Bushes and Blairs that the whole world's going to hell. I really liked that Swordsman put Bush and Blair in one sentence with Italy's Berlusconi, who is in a coalition with the once openly fascist now nationalist National Alliance of Gianfranco Fini. Go on - hail the "new Europe"...  | |
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03-04-2003, 06:51 PM
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#35 | | Quit (no longer with us)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 40
| interesting reactions; i don't know about calling people cowards, they just want to try to find a way to 1. get the bad-guys; 2. secure the nation 3. and find some way of establishing peace and security. Plenty of people in the middle east do drugs. I think the drug problem is disgusting, but there doesn't seem to be an answer, do you think there is? Let's hear it! | |
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03-04-2003, 11:45 PM
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#36 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Amherst, MA and Franklin, MA
Posts: 2,485
| Quote: Originally posted by 135711
About the Utopia thing, the classic arguement was then and appears to be now; can some people handle it? What kind of person would be dissatisfied if the population were able to co-exist together?
An exaple of a pretty close Utopian Society is Japan. Japanese people, in Business will agree with one another, they aren't kidding around and they aren't pretending to agree. They genuinely see and understand one another's point. They may not carry out your plan or idea, but they will politely agree that your point of view is well taken, and even applaud it. It's taken centuries to get just right, but they have it down now.
It has to do with Invidivualism vs Society. Can you do things the way others do them? Or do you have to do things your way? Can you handle it when other people do things their way, or do you have to have people do things your way? Eventually all societies go through these growing pains, until we all agree together that doing something a certain way is generally best for everyone. This does not mean that you would not be able to do something for example like: produce a peice of artwork. However, whether or not you would be able to display the artwork in a public park may be another story, it would have to be agreed upon.
To understand more about Utopia read John Stuart Mill, and the Greatest Good theories - What is best for the Greatest Good in society? Your rights, My rights or Our rights. | So great Japan is as close as we have come. But do we want to be like Japan, where individualism is stiffled and live in a society where your social status is set at birth?
Plus Utopian societies have been tried before, Brook Farms ring a bell? Maybe anyone who is a socialist, utopian sorry, should not read anymore rubish by Mill, or Marx for that matter. Maybe they should read some transcendentalism, or maybe just some conservative works??? Anything to remove you from the notion that, "we should all get along" is the way to form a society. Sure we are all "created equal" but from straight after birth we have the chance to become gretaer, or worse than the norm of society. We should not all just stay the same, if that were the case what is the point of human life at all? Theoretically you would not be able to love jsut one person, you would have to love everyone just as much as your husband.
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-Kevin
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03-05-2003, 01:24 AM
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#37 | | Quit (no longer with us)
Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: usa
Posts: 1,307
| So great! Japan is as close as we have come. But do we want to be like Japan, where individualism is stiffled and live in a society where your social status is set at birth? [this is the opinion of 2nd generation Japanese people - my former boyfriend from Japan doesn't want to go back to Japan, precisely because he feels his individuality would be stifled however, from what I observed during my last trip, Japan has broken away from conservatism and is more accepting of individual differences. For example: an article about Japan written 10 years ago, described an old man's opinion of the "younger generation" he lamented their red hair and so forth, he stated that the older generation was not able to connect with the younger generation anymore, and have simply decided to call them the x generation, he really meant it.
Last edited by 135711; 03-22-2003 at 04:53 PM.
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03-05-2003, 01:33 PM
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#38 | | Senior Member
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 698
| Quote: Originally posted by buccaneer
Speaking of pitiful ways of lives, i don't know of crack being smoked in the streets in the middle east. This will still happen in the US long after Israel and the Palestinian State have a common soccer league.
It's thanks to Bushes and Blairs that the whole world's going to hell. I really liked that Swordsman put Bush and Blair in one sentence with Italy's Berlusconi, who is in a coalition with the once openly fascist now nationalist National Alliance of Gianfranco Fini. Go on - hail the "new Europe"... |
Of course they don't smoke crack over there - how could they ever afford it? They just do whatever cheaper drugs they can get. Have you seen the movie "Blackhawk Down"? That was 10,000+ Somalis all on drugs. Drugs aren't a problem of poverty vs. affluence, or anything like that; they're just a problem. The wealthier a nation gets, the more of its people can afford drugs. You don't think that Israeli-Palestinian soccer league will have drug scandals?
__________________
It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us the freedom of speech. It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who gives us the freedom to demonstrate. It is the soldier who salutes the flag, who serves beneath the flag, and whose coffin is draped by the flag, who allows the protestor to burn the flag. - Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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03-20-2003, 06:55 PM
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#39 | | Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Vancouver, BC, the WET coast of Canada
Posts: 1,971
| I didn't reaslise the Nobel people are giving out prizes for being a savage. Now i know.
Hey all, when you rant, it's easier to read if you break up your rant into paragraphs, otherwise peole won't read them or read them reluctantly.
You do want people to read your rant otherwise you wouldn;t have spend half-an-hour typing it up...
::Smart ***::
OI don't think anyone has mentioned the true meaning of the word Utopia yet. Till now.
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