Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

float · 02-14-2003, 06:14 PM

Isn't that supposed to be this weekend? Wonder how our Titans are doing....

edew · 02-14-2003, 09:29 PM

I think our Titan recruited a cyclops in the brush.

oiuyt · 02-15-2003, 03:57 PM

From Dana Duncum at USFA Nat'l Office:

Quote:

Dear USFA Division Officers,

The Titan Games will be held this weekend in San Jose California at the San
Jose State University Center. Some of our top fencers, and Olympic
hopefuls, past and present, will compete in the games.

The games will be broadcast on ESPN 2, March 29-30, however USFA members can
use their cards to get tickets for each session at half price! You can help
gain support for fencing by posting the following announcement on your
division's website, and by spreading the word to your members, particularly
in California. I have asked our webmaster, David Sapery, to post the
information on the USFA website as well.

Thank you for your continued support!

Dana Dumcum
Director of Member Services
USFA

USFA Members!

The Titan Games are upon us. The road to Athens begins at an Olympic-style
competition where the USA battles the best in the World. Past Olympic
heroes and future Olympic hopefuls will stand eye-to-eye and battle
toe-to-toe in the toughest events the Olympic Games have to offer: boxing,
fencing, judo, karate, shot put, taekwondo, weightlifting and wrestling.

This competition will utilize a unique 6-weapon team relay format designed
for television broadcasting.

Plans are in effect to broadcast the competition on ESPN 2, March 29-30.
However, by special arrangement with the sponsors of the Titan Games,
persons showing their USFA Membership Card can obtain tickets for each
session of the Titan Games for half price! See the action live at the San
Jose State University Event Center in San Jose California, February 13-15.
Tickets may be purchased at the San Jose State University Event Center Box
Office

We hope to see you there!!

See below for a complete schedule of events, and competitors: For more
information visit the Titan Games Website at:
www.USOlympicteam.com/TITANGAMES

<<...OLE_Obj...>>
SCHEDULE

Session I
February 13 - Thursday, 8:30-10:30 p.m. (Night of Champions)

Platform 1: Judo - USA vs. Mexico
Platform 2: Boxing - USA vs. Mexico
Platform 3: Karate - USA vs. Mexico

Session II
February 14 - Friday, 7-10 p.m.

Stage: Fencing - USA vs. Pan Am All Stars
Weightlifting (W)
Platform 1: Judo - China vs. Mexico
Taekwondo - USA vs. Vietnam
Platform 2: Boxing - Cuba vs. Puerto Rico
Platform 3: Wrestling - USA vs. Cuba

Session III
February 15 - Saturday, 12-3 p.m.

Stage: Fencing -Pan Am All Stars vs. Asia
Fencing - USA vs. Asia
Platform 1: Taekwondo, Vietnam vs. Korea (M/W)
Platform 2: Boxing - Consolation matches from USA/Mexico and Cuba/Puerto
Rico
Platform 3: Wrestling - Russia vs. Cuba

Session IV
February 15 - Saturday, 7-10 p.m.

Stage: Fencing - "Battle of the Best" from Session II & III
Weightlifting (M)
Platform 1: Taekwondo - USA vs. Korea
Judo - USA vs. China (M/W)
Platform 2: Boxing - 1st place match - winners of USA/Mexico vs.
Cuba/Puerto Rico
Platform 3: Wrestling - Russia vs. USA

FENCING DELEGATIONS, TITAN GAMES AS OF 2-12-03

Paris Inostroza, M. Epee Santiago, Chile
Carlos Junco, M. Foil Mexico City, MEX
Eddie Moreno M. Sabre Carolina, PUR
Marina McConkey W. Epee Calgary, CAN
Silvia Rothfeld W. Foil Porto Alegre, Brazil
Jerimar Gutierrez W. Sabre Venezuela
Sandra Sassine W. Sabre Canada

Sang Hoon KIM M. Foil Korea
Arai Yuko, W. Foil Japan
Avelino Victorino M. Epee Philippines
Ka La Ho W. Epee Hong Kong
Tsz Ki Chow W. Sabre Hong Kong
Emerson Segui M. Sabre, Philippines

BOLD = Last Name

Eric Hansen M. Epee San Bruno, CA
Alex Wood M. Foil San Francisco,
CA
G. Colin Parker M. Sabre Columbus, OH
Kristin Suchorski W. Epee Chevy Chase, MD
Iris Zimmermann W. Foil San Jose, CA
Sada Jacobson W. Sabre Atlanta, GA

Peter Erdei International Referee Budapest, Hungary

George Kolombatovich, FIE Arbitrage NYC
Nancy Anderson Tournament Director Princeton, NJ
Matthew Porter Athlete Armorer San Francisco
David Rosenheimer Team Armorer Sacramento, CA
Ted Li Scoring Equip. Technician Newark, NJ
Sherry Posthumus LOC Liaison San Jose

Stacey Johnson NGB President San Antonio, TX
Donald Anthony, Jr. NGB Officer Columbus, OH
Michael Massik NGB Exec. Director Colo. Spr., CO
Carl Borack US Team Leader Los Angeles, CA
Suzie Paxton Media Liaison NYC
Felicia Zimmermann Fencing Demo/Media Los Angeles, CA
Michael Sullivan NGB Officer
Indianapolis, IN

Robert Suchorski Coach Chevy Chase,
MD
Zheng Kang Zhao Coach Hong Kong
Miguel Angel Arevalo President Venezuela Fencing
Fed.
Heizaburo Okawa Team Liaison Pan Pacific Team

-B :)

JEC · 02-15-2003, 05:30 PM

Results - TITAN games - Fencing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fencing (USA vs Pan-Am All-Stars)

Weapon, name/country vs. name/country, running total of team score
M Epee — Eric Hansen/USA vs. Paris Alfonso Inostroza/Chile, 6-7
W Epee — Kristin Suchorski/USA vs. Marina McConkey/Canada, 15-15
M Foil — Alex Wood/USA vs. Carlos Junco/Mexico, 24-16
W Foil — Iris Zimmerman/USA vs. Silvia Rothfeld/Brazil, 35-22
M Sabre — Colin Parker/USA vs. Eddie Moreno/Puerto Rico, 52-36
W Sabre — Sada Jacobson/USA vs. Sandra Sassine/Canada, 64-44

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

More fencing tonight!

Feb. 15 / Session IV: Saturday, 7- 10 p.m.
Stage: Fencing, "Best vs. Best" (M/W)

veeco · 02-18-2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

The Titan Games scoring format allows for each fencer in the relay event to score as many touches as possible in each four minute match, and the score accumulates through the six-person relay. Each match inherits the score of his or her teammate through the entire match.

This is an interesting format, with the sabre (the best weapon for the US) being at the end. Could it be that the format was "tweaked" so that the US had it easier?

It's much easier to come back at the end when it's sabre and you have your world champion fencing...

JEC · 02-18-2003, 09:08 PM

Fencing
Day Three

Team Asia vs. Pan Am All-Stars

Weapon, name/country vs. name/country, running total of team score
M Epee — Avelino Victorio/PHI vs. Paris Alfonso Inostroza/CHI, 7-6
W Epee — Ka Lai Ho/HKG vs. Marina McConkey/CAN, 15-13
M Foil — Sang Kim/KOR vs. Carlos Junco/MEX, 22-17
W Foil — Arai Yuko/JPN vs. Silvia Rothfeld/BRA, 28-22
M Sabre — Segui Emerson/PHI vs. Eddie Moreno/PUR, 36-35
W Sabre — Sandra Sassine/CAN vs. Tsz Ki Chow/HKG, 48-43

Team USA vs. Team Asia

Weapon, name/country vs. name/country, running total of team score
M Epee — Eric Hansen /USA vs. Avelino Victorino/PHI, 7-4
W Epee — Ka Lai Ho/HKG vs. Kristin Suchorski/USA, 16-11
M Foil — Alex Wood /USA vs. Sang Kim/KOR, 19-18
W Foil — Iris Zimmermann/USA vs. Arai Yuko/JPN, 25-25
M Sabre — Segui Emerson/PHI vs. Colin Parker/USA, 41-38
W Sabre — Tsz Ki Chow/HKG vs. Sada Jacobson/USA, 56-50

Final: Team Asia def. Team USA, 56-50
Titan games - Day three results

Quote:

This is an interesting format, with the sabre (the best weapon for the US) being at the end. Could it be that the format was "tweaked" so that the US had it easier?

It didn't work against Team Asia

veeco · 02-19-2003, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by JEC

Final: Team Asia def. Team USA, 56-50
Titan games - Day three results

It didn't work against Team Asia

Huh? I think that's a mistake. USA won that match, with the help of, guess what? 4 minutes of effective men's sabre time, followed by 4 minutes of effective women's sabre time...

http://www.usolympicteam.com/titanga...nningUpset.cfm

They must have had the scores reversed in the results page...

I guess the days when fencing bouts where fenced with the rules from the organizing country are still not over yet...

float · 02-19-2003, 09:38 AM

while not intended to slight anyone's abilities, would anyone consider the "all-stars" truly "titans" in the sport?

...nothing like stacking the deck (and then the rules) in one's favor is there....

-f

PeterGustafsson · 02-19-2003, 10:43 AM

Hi!

Veeco wrote:
------
I guess the days when fencing bouts where fenced with the rules from the organizing country are still not over yet...
------

I think that this is quite benign, as far as rules-fixing goes.

There are three ways of fixing the rules in order to favoritize the home team:
A. Having the same written rules for everyone, but applying them with discrimination.
B. Having rules which expressly favoritize the home team.
C. Writing rules which do not mention any given team, and are equal in the writing, but are chosen so that the home teams factual strengths are given most leverage, and its weaknesses are penalized as little as possible.

There are two types of rules to fix:
1. Rules pertaining to the individual bout/match/game.
2. Rules pertaining to how results in each bout/match/game affect the outcome of the total competition.

In this classification, the rules-fixing described above is of type C2. If you look at the football World Championships, you see that the home team (or home teams, in the latest case) are always given ratings - for seeding purposes - among the top 8, regardless of their real strength, thus a rules-fixing of type B2. This is akin to giving every home fencer an A rating before the poules are set. This is of course for commercial purposes. It helps the home team to advance in the WC, and thus fills stadiums.

In the case of the Titan games, I guess that something similar is at stake: by massaging the team format rules, the competition leadership increased chance of US. wins, and therefore increasing the "feel-good" factor of the spectators. This competition is of very little importance, so what is the problem with that? If it gets more people interested in fencing, then I am all for it.

Something more fishy is the composition of the non-USA teams: if they are to represent the best each continent has to offer - past and present - , should there not be more Cubans in the Pan-Am team? I have never heard of the Puerto Rican before.

Imagine team USA against a team Europe, consisting of Milanoli/Duplitzer/Vanni/Bojko/Pozdniakov/Jemajeva. No amount of rules-fixing would save Stars and Stripes from being stomped upon by old Europe. ;-)

Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

JEC · 02-19-2003, 11:11 AM

The purpose of the TITAN games was to train and prepare US pre-olympic talent. The idea was to maximize the opportunity for the US team to have more bouts. Thus, I am not surprised that the organizers included a team (Pan-Am) that the US team was expected to win against, and then a team that they were expected to lose or barely win against.

An appropriate challenge for a mountain climber is not to climb K-2 outright from the Rockies. Given the amount of talent at the youth and junior ranks, the US team would be a top of fencing K-2 in a decade or so.

edew · 02-19-2003, 12:10 PM

The purpose of the Titan games was to show off the lesser known combat sports to the AMERICAN audience. These sports routinely get short shrift by the media (and fencing was only mentioned as a side-bar by the various newspapers during the Titan Games weekend: taekwondo had a feature spread, women's wrestling had a feature spread, and I think weightlifting also did, too), and by combining them into one venue, held in a quasi festival atmosphere, gave them all an opportunity to show the sport in a different way.

Fencing lasted about all of 30 minutes each time (not hard to figure....4 minutes times six bouts, 1-2 minutes between bouts to change combatants...)

It was not supposed to be a pre-Olympic qualifying program, no matter what the promos on the Titan Games website say.

veeco · 02-19-2003, 03:54 PM

I was not trying to give the Titan games a bad name, or say that it was a badly planned or organized thing.

I just wanted to point out that IMO, 4 minutes of effective sabre fencing is:

- Not a good preparation for the "real" thing

Regardless of whether it is skewing the rules "just a little bit" or not, it is skewing the rules, and it in my opinion it is not "real" fencing...