Point me to the rule?

[ysbadadden]

There used to be a rule that a fencing jacket had to have a cuissard (crotch) strap. I don't find it in the current rulebook. I searched on "jacket." Am I missing something, or is that rule gone?

[Purple Fencer]

Lessee....I found M.34.5, but that's in reference to the sabre lame.
M.28.7 in reference to the strap not being conductive (again, in reference to the lame)

[Alexander Kai]

So it's possible to have a jacket without such a strap as long as its made of conforming material, can't catch an opponents point, and has the appropriate minimum newton resistance? (oh, and it has to overlap with the pants by 10cm, right?)

[Purple Fencer]

So it's possible to have a jacket without such a strap as long as its made of conforming material, can't catch an opponents point, and has the appropriate minimum newton resistance? (oh, and it has to overlap with the pants by 10cm, right?)

Kinda looks like it, but I think it'd be best to wait for someone like Donald who knows the rules in a bit more depth.

[ysbadadden]

Plus you'd have to be wearing adequate protection of the groin area. But has there actually been a change in the rule?

[erik_blank]

HUmmm... Can't find it in the FIE rules either (English Language version...)

[Purple Fencer]

I remember hearing this rule, at least as applied to sabre jackets....if you raised your arms, the jacket would ride up...blade don't hit the jacket...ain't no touch.

But considering old school sabre jackets WERE made with no cuissard...this sounds like one of a series of changes...and presumptions made since all lames and jackets today DO have the cuissard. Which makes sense, since the pieces are cut from the same pattern.

[Goldgar]

m.25/4/b says, "In épée the fencer is required to wear a regulation jacket, which must cover the whole of the surface of the trunk." It doesn't explicitly say that this covering must be achieved by means of a croissard, so maybe it could be pinned to the crotch. :-)

Note that no such requirement applies to foil or sabre, since these weapons require the wearing of a lamé. which must conform to rules of its own. A sabre lamé must have a groin strap ("croissard", or sometimes "cuissard"), c.f. m.34/5. A foil lamé must have a groin strap, though its existence is only implied by the rule that specifies its characteristics, m.28/7.

[ysbadadden]

That's it. I knew it had to still be there somewhere. Thanks!
The next question: is there a rule that says the jacket has to be worn over the pants? I know that the rules say "overlap," but in the rulebook, that can been both "lie over" and "lie under," as in everyday English.

[Purple Fencer]

That's it. I knew it had to still be there somewhere. Thanks!
The next question: is there a rule that says the jacket has to be worn over the pants? I know that the rules say "overlap," but in the rulebook, that can been both "lie over" and "lie under," as in everyday English.

If you wore the knickers over the pants, the shoulder straps would present a catching hazard...so they must be worn underneath the jacket.

[ysbadadden]

Where does it say that the knickers have to have shoulder straps?

[Purple Fencer]

Where does it say that the knickers have to have shoulder straps?

Not specifically for knickers, but m.25.2 covers it in a general sense.

It could be argued that the cuissard itself violates this rule, but it's in a location very rarely hit compared to the chest area where the knickers straps are.

Plus, without the straps, the knickers could fall down...in itself, a safety hazard.

This rule is one reason I designed my knickers with no flap on the zipper and with zippered closures on both pockets...no flap/pocket to catch the blade.

[bigdawg2121]

It doesn't I "have" an old Santelli pair with no straps...or would if my friend would ever return them. Seeing as they were borrowed about 8yrs ago now, I have little hope of seeing them again.

[Purple Fencer]

It doesn't I "have" an old Santelli pair with no straps...or would if my friend would ever return them. Seeing as they were borrowed about 8yrs ago now, I have little hope of seeing them again.

I'm trying to remember if my first knickers had straps....Santellis from around 81-82.

[ysbadadden]

Pants worn outside the jacket can catch a point traveling downward. A jacket worn otside the pants can catch a point traveling upward. I appreciate Purple's zippered pockets They make sense to me.

Another question: why do the [US] rules specify "knickers?"

[jjefferies]

Another question: why do the [US] rules specify "knickers?"

Interesting question. Asking one of our British club members last week what do "knickers" mean in Brit English. His response is that they are "frilly female undergarments".

And what do they call fencing pants? "Britches".

[ysbadadden]

nd see how the Brits react to "suspenders."

[SJCFU#2]

I remember hearing this rule, at least as applied to sabre jackets....if you raised your arms, the jacket would ride up...blade don't hit the jacket...ain't no touch.

But considering old school sabre jackets WERE made with no cuissard...this sounds like one of a series of changes...and presumptions made since all lames and jackets today DO have the cuissard. Which makes sense, since the pieces are cut from the same pattern.

However not all jackets today have the cuissard.

Allstar still sells traditional saber jackets (cut off at the waist with no cuissard) across their entire line of FIE uniforms (Athen, Startex and Ecostar). In fact the only line they don't appear to sell a saber jacket for is their non-FIE (Lyon) line.

Uhlmann appears to sell a FIE saber jacket as well, although without a picture on their web site it's difficult to say for certain whether or not it's a traditional saber jacket.

[DHCJr]

First, Goldgar is correct about m.25.4.b requiring a full jacket for Epee. There has been unofficial talk in SEMI about closing the loophole for Foil and Sabre for Jackets, but the requirement is there for the electric vests.

For you second question, let us look at m.25.4.a. It does not say the jacket and the breeches must overlap. It states, "At all weapons, for men and ladies, the lower edge of the jacket must overlap the breeches by at least 10 cm when the fencer is in the on-guard position". If it had said the former, the breeches could be on the outside, but with the latter it is clear the Jacket over the breeches.

For the question about pants let us look at m.25.5.a. It states, "The breeches must be fastened below the knees." Are the ankles below the knees? Does it give any requirement on fastened? Could fastened mean just material like how pants are made?

A Cussard is actually not required at all. I have gone back to before the first TOM rules and the rule has not changed. Some may not know this, but there have been 1-piece uniforms (jacket and breeches combined). If there were such a rule these would be illegal and they are legal.

[Purple Fencer]

Pants worn outside the jacket can catch a point traveling downward. A jacket worn otside the pants can catch a point traveling upward. I appreciate Purple's zippered pockets They make sense to me.

Another question: why do the [US] rules specify "knickers?"

A shortened version of "knickerbockers."