fencing in a circle?!?

[jusplainfencing]

ok i have a question that me and my mother are having a debate about my fencing coach made a comment in passing about soon fencing will be in a circle instead of a strip!.....i never got the chance to ask if he was joking but my mother dosent think so (for hes not the joking type) but i cant imagine any such thing.... the rules would have to be adjusted the history of fencing would be changed i just cant think for a second that this is for real has anyone heard anything about this?.......when i go to practice in a couple of days i will ask him about it but i cant wait that long ....my curiostity is killing me....if youve heard anything please reply or even if you think hes full of crap reply i just want to know what ya'll think.......thanx

[Catal]

He's crock-full-o-crap.

[Repechage]

According to Richard Cohen in his book By the Sword it has been considered.

[Catal]

Richard Cohen is crock-full-o-crap too.

[remise]

That was classical fencing. This is sport fencing. Besides, you'd get dizzy, and the ref's would get dizzy and the spectators would have to spin around with the action as well.

[Mulligan]

The reason that fencing evolved to the straight strip as it is now is that the good fencers didn't bother walking in circles around each other. The successful fencers were attacking straight in and exiting straight out.

If your fencing coach thinks that sidestepping is a good strategy in a duel, I would say that the odds are that he is not a very good fencer. If you ever want to have fun with a cocky SCA fencer, fence with him, but don't allow him to circle you. when he sidesteps, step backward. And if he cross steps, double advance lunge to his chest.

Dan

[afc fencer]

In the last Escrime magazine they talk about this. The general idea of the article was that with the innovation of wireless fencing(in saber) circle or square strips could be used. An experiment was run at the National Swiss expo. They gave demonstrations to the non-fencing public. Fencing on a round or square strip seemed to attract more attention.

[MikeHarm]

I think the biggest difference in the sport if we were to fence in a circle would be a greatly increased rate of ankle and knee injuries from all the extra twisting around people would try to do infighting when they got close.

[Iwant2bafencer]

Interesting idea. Here's a question. Which would all of you personally perfer? circle or straight? That is with the idea that it would be wireless fencing. (that could be an interesting sight behing all wound up.)

-----------------------
Carpe Diem
Ad Asha

[veeco]

As Mulligan said, there is a reason why our strips are straight right now, and it's not only to do with the fact that we have a wire attached to our backs (after all, fencing was made on straight strips even before we went electric).

I we were to fence on a round or square area, fencing would basically go only in a straight line, because all geometry buffs will tell you that the shortest point from one place to another is a straight line.

The most efficient way to fence is to fence on a straight line. If they advance, you retreat.

Even on straight strips, you rarely see good fencers actually move laterally from one side of the strip to another. You do see people trying to make their opponent feel uncomfortable by pushing them on one side rather than another (esp. in lefty righty situations) but I rarely see good fencers sidestepping.

[Dav3ey]

Must say I favor the strip.

Lots of people make lots of suggestions about "improvements" to fencing as well as lots of other sports and games.

Remember that international soccer considered replacing the throw-in with a spot kick, vastly increasing the number of set plays, but rejected it.

I'm only aware of one substantive change to the rules sponsored by a champion -- Bobby Fisher's preferred version of chess involves random placement of pieces (not pawns).

Sorry to say I'm not sanguine about attempts to make things better by reworking the basic nature of the game.

[Inquartata]

You know, though, that in the 16th and 17th century the Spanish were some of the most redoubtable fencers and duellists in Europe, grudgingly admired even by the likes of George Silver. And the Spanish School was all about...chords and tangents and movements distinctly nonlinear.

Circling an opponent, despite the fondness of some SCAdians and fiction writers for the tactic, is pretty much a waste of time, inasmuch as the person circled has only to turn slightly compared to distances the circler must cover. But sidestepping and advances/retreats at angles to an opponent's straight attack are another matter.

That said, I would not particularly like to see a round piste for modern sport fencing.

[jusplainfencing]

i was reading all your posts wich are very interesting and i noticed that afc fencer mentioned an escrime magazine.... and i was wondering if this was a fencing magazine or if anyone knew of any? ive tried to find a fencing magazine but have had no luck anyone know of one? oh and thanx for replying to my post my mother now has been rethinking her views on circle fencing lol ....keep posting id like to hear more thoughts........

[Sildar]

Originally posted by Mulligan
The reason that fencing evolved to the straight strip as it is now is that the good fencers didn't bother walking in circles around each other. The successful fencers were attacking straight in and exiting straight out.

If your fencing coach thinks that sidestepping is a good strategy in a duel, I would say that the odds are that he is not a very good fencer. If you ever want to have fun with a cocky SCA fencer, fence with him, but don't allow him to circle you. when he sidesteps, step backward. And if he cross steps, double advance lunge to his chest.

Dan

That's quite interesting. By those statements may I surmise that your coach doesn't teach the inquartata, or the fleche? The fleche is an attack made at an angle; though the weapon may go straight at the opponent, the attacker's body travels to the side at a slight angle. The inquartata voids the target area to one side with a simulataneous counterthrust. And in infighting I suppose he doesn't advocate sidestepping a bit with the riposte of prime? And many good fencers do in fact hug one side of the strip or the other to try to find a better angle to launch their attacks. And that's fencing by sport rules on a strip.

Historically, as Inquartata pointed out, the Spanish (whose entire offense and defense was primarily based on angular attacks and defense, and voiding the body while thrusting, and circling to find the best opening) were considered some of the most dangerous duelists in Europe for almost 300 years.

I think you might feel differently if you had ever fenced someone who has actually seriously trained using angular offense and defense. Though most SCA fencers do practice in the round, very very few of them are doing anything which resembles actual dueling technique.

Fencing on a circle would certainly change the way fencing is practiced currently; the fleche would either be altered greatly or abandoned alltogether, as you wouldn't be saved by a halt an instant after you leave the strip. You'd either get carded for turning your back, or be hit. And all those times when the bout is halted because someone goes off the side (to avoid getting hit at close range) wouldn't stop the action. I'd be interested in seeing this happen...if I didn't already fence with people doing historically accurate fencing.

[Sildar]

Oh, and by the way, anyway who wants to learn the CORRECT way to fence using circling tactics and angular attack and defense should come to the Redwood rapier camp in July; the announcement is posted in the tournaments and camps forum on this site. You may be surprised...

[Repechage]

Originally posted by jusplainfencing
i was reading all your posts wich are very interesting and i noticed that afc fencer mentioned an escrime magazine.... and i was wondering if this was a fencing magazine or if anyone knew of any? ive tried to find a fencing magazine but have had no luck anyone know of one? oh and thanx for replying to my post my mother now has been rethinking her views on circle fencing lol ....keep posting id like to hear more thoughts........

Escrime is the magazine of the F.I.E., the international federation for fencing. It usually has nice pictures, a few ads, and some articles rather oddly translated into English, French and, I think, Spanish. If you join the FIE in order to fence internationally the magazine comes with your membership.

[Mulligan]

Sildar, you said:
"That's quite interesting. By those statements may I surmise that your coach doesn't teach the inquartata, or the fleche?"

Why on earth would you surmise that? That is just stupid. the Inquartata and Fleche` have nothing to do with fencing on a round piste, circling your oponent, or sidestepping for that matter. The fleche` is executed at an angle, but that is to avoid collision. (and no....i do not consider the fleche` to be an important attack...it is a showy manuever that can occassionally catch someone off guard)

As for hugging one side of the strip....that doesn't have anything to do with circling, does it?

I think that a better way to keep fencers from deliberately stepping off the strip would be for it to cost them a touch.

As for the Spanish and thier angular attacks...well that was all made obsolete by the Italian school and the double advance lunge. Those "historically accurate" duellists have a right to die any way they want I suppose.

I don't think that fencing in the round would change things much, the top fencers will still be fencing straight in and straight out

Mulligan

[Inquartata]

With respect...the inquartata is made by combining a demivolte
( or sidestep which displaces the body, to the right for a
right-hander ) with a croise.

I also see the demivolte combined with a stop thrust quite often.

Also, the Spanish School wasn't "made obsolete" by the Italian. In fact it influenced the Italian...and then outlived it, being practiced into the 19th century. What made the Spanish fence obsolete, if it can be said to have become so, was the obsolescence of the rapier, and the consequent loss of its raison d'etre. It was a serious duelling style, and did not lend itself well to conversion into a sport and pastime. It's true that it probably wouldn't profit a modern foilist to study it much, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work because it's not linear...

[MikeHarm]

When it comes to bladework we have both down the center attacks, like simple lunges and disengages and the flanking actions such as the angular attacks or flicks with our bladework.

When it comes to the bladwork we have the classical/historical fencers (at least some of them) arguing for the beauty of the down the center game with nice clearly visible attacks and disengages and such and against the flanking actions like flicks/angular attacks claiming these actions ruin the sport, and wouldn't really work anyways and the modern sport fencers saying it adds to it and makes it a better game.

Then we come to this subject of fencing in a circle which opens up flanking techniques on our footwork instead of just down the center of the strip and we see the historical/classical folks talking about how much it would add to the game and broaden the moves you could do and some of our sport fencers talking about how horrible it would be to get away from going down the center and having flanking moves in our footwork and how it wouldn't really work anyways.

Its like two sides of a mirror, Ying and Yang.

[Inquartata]

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"