Sending students to New York??

[MdA]

I see nothing in my post that warrants such disrespect to them or myself. This is a coaches forum and I expected a rather more professional response that a few here choose not to display. I will not address such rubbish further. …..

This is a rough crowd here in the Coaching Corner. We have raised disrespecting each other to a high art form

…and we’re “professional” alright…..professional pirates.

Anyone can be a Fencing Coach ...or Pirate

[Allen Evans]

I suspect that there is only one pirate in this thread....and it's not you or me.

A

[AbsoluteDrubbing]

Watching the thread drift with great amusement - Noone is suggesting that this is related to the "Tripod Consulting Company"

I need a glass of wine to go with the entertainment. Wine Steward - I'll have another bottle of '61 Latour and charge it to that gentleman over there.

[MdA]

On a little more serious note. I think that going to practice sessions in NYC or DC will be of limited value. I don’t think any of the clubs will welcome you in for a floor fee…except perhaps during free fencing sessions.
Your kids will end up standing on the side waiting for an available strip while the local kids (and coaches) ignore them.
Take them to a few Super RYC and RYCs in the NYC area or the NorthEast. Take your video camera along and watch the bouts with them…and give them advice.
This is what I did with my kids when we were isolated down here in South Texas. We went to as many Youth NACs, Super RYCs and RYCs as we could afford. Brought the video tape back home….broke it down and worked it into their lessons.

[Rusty]

MdA thanks for some good advise!

I teach hundreds of students each year. Perhaps 23 compete at different levels with average results. 3 currently have real potential. They are young. Their folks want to give them the best conditions possible and have little concern about money. I find it strange that a simple request for information about fencing in NY has become an invitation to inform me that I am overreaching, disrespecting, and otherwise imposing my own ego over the needs of my students. In the future I will get advise from other sources

Over and out

[bigdawg2121]

You want to prepare 11 year olds for international competitions?

Seems a year late. I understand that most ten year olds are already fencing in Europe.

...something about this entire post doesn't make sense. I'm especially confused about the "hundreds" of students in the VA area. The most recent RYC in Charlottesville had 17 epee fencers across both sexes and three age groups.

Where are the rest of the fencers?

A

Have you seen where Pan-Am Youths are this year? I seriously hope I get the go ahead to coach the littleuns from our club there. My new passport app goes in tomorrow just to make sure.

[Mr Epee]

Greener Pastures Syndrome Trickles Down:

1. At this year's European CADET Circuit event in Göteborg, Sweden, there were nearly 60 American athletes in attendance. Sixty. I don't know exactly what that was about, how it happened, or what was accomplished. I do know it evidences an ascendant culture of vanity travel as an indispensable fixture in the American fencer's development experience.

2. Every year hundreds of American youth soccer teams travel to South America and Europe for 'athlete development.' Many of the kids who make these trips are not even NCAA caliber players, and making these trips is merely one more of the 'experiences' available to those who invest the requisite time on the training field and whose parents can afford it. Sure, they might have had other less travel intensive (cheaper) options available, but these things are not rational within the context of cheapest/best training experience possible.

3. That said, there is an active, ongoing prisoner's dilemma when it comes to American youth fencing vis-a-vis travel to international competitions. As with any prisoner's dilemma, the outcome is payoff dependent.

4. As an aside, having other strong, similarly focused programs in close proximity doesn't necessarily mean that you should be 'training' regularly with them, but they can serve the more important purpose of providing motivation for the development of your own program. From that perspective, it would certainly make sense to travel well outside of the immediate vicinity for training purposes.

5. NYC is as close to hallowed ground as you can find in the American fencing community.

[Inquartata]

I hope everyone out there is bowing respectfully every time someone mentions NYC.

There. Do it again.

[Superscribe]

Greener Pastures Syndrome Trickles Down:

2. Every year hundreds of American youth soccer teams travel to South America and Europe for 'athlete development.' Many of the kids who make these trips are not even NCAA caliber players, and making these trips is merely one more of the 'experiences' available to those who invest the requisite time on the training field and whose parents can afford it. Sure, they might have had other less travel intensive (cheaper) options available, but these things are not rational within the context of cheapest/best training experience possible.

I don't understand. They are youth. Are you saying 1) you can tell that they will never become NCAA players, or 2) In their youth, these kids don't play at the level of college athletes?

1) How did you make those inferences?
2) I don't think you have to be playing at a college athlete level to get benefits from playing soccer against very different teams and have an excuse to vacation.

I am constantly writing off whiny puffball of kids because I think they'll never amount to anything, but then I'm surrounded by whiny puffball kids who turned into very, very good athletes.

[D'Art]

I don't understand. They are youth. Are you saying 1) you can tell that they will never become NCAA players, or 2) In their youth, these kids don't play at the level of college athletes?

1) How did you make those inferences?
2) I don't think you have to be playing at a college athlete level to get benefits from playing soccer against very different teams and have an excuse to vacation.

I think what Mr E was getting at is that sometimes you don't have to go to extreme lengths to get a fulfilling and worthwhile experience, and certainly not when it's highly likely most of these kids won't make it to the top of the game. It may not be necessary to spend loads of money, when there are other alternatives available elsewhere which may be more cost effective, yet still provide good learning experiences for them.

[Mr Epee]

He
Hey D'Art, I agree with what you wrote, but I was trying to make a different point in that particular post. Since it appears to have caused some confusion, I went back and tried to clarify. Added parts are [in brackets].

Greener Pastures Syndrome Trickles Down:

2. Every year hundreds of American youth soccer teams travel to South America and Europe for 'athlete development.' Many of the kids who make these trips [wouldn't get a second look from an NCAA scout], and making these trips is merely one more of the 'experiences' available to those who invest the requisite time on the training field and whose parents can afford it. Sure, they might have had other less travel intensive (cheaper) options available, but [making these international trips] are not rational within the context of [searching out the] cheapest/best training experience possible. [Their rationality comes into focus when couched neatly in the context of parents enabling their children to be 'well-traveled' and 'worldly']

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SuperS,

I can't quite figure what you understood from the original, so re-read and feel free to re-state your concerns.

Cheers.

[Fencergrl]

MdA thanks for some good advise!

I teach hundreds of students each year. Perhaps 23 compete at different levels with average results. 3 currently have real potential. They are young. Their folks want to give them the best conditions possible and have little concern about money. I find it strange that a simple request for information about fencing in NY has become an invitation to inform me that I am overreaching, disrespecting, and otherwise imposing my own ego over the needs of my students. In the future I will get advise from other sources

Over and out

I'm a little surprised that you feel people were being disrespectful, as this thread has been rather civil. Then again, I see no harm in having someone question my reasoning when I am trying to make a decision. To be truthful, I find it can be most helpful to have people I respect (in this case people I respect as coaches) offer an opinion. That is mostly what I see happening in this thread.

The reason you are not getting the answers you're looking for "where should I go in NYC?" is that I think most of us here are trying to wrap our heads around the why? If you were a fencer wondering where to fence in NY, you would have got several suggestions right away. However, you're a coach planning on taking young fencers to NY so they can fence at another club. If you were taking them to a training camp or tournament, this would make sense, however this isn't the case.

So naturally other coaches are asking "What is it that you're looking to achieve?" They know just showing up at a club with some 11 year olds in tow, at a NY fencing club may not be well thought through plan and is likely to cost your fencers (and their parents) time & money but achieve little in improving their fencing.

So rather than get all offended that no one is answering your question, consider for a moment that perhaps you're not asking the right questions to yourself. Consider that perhaps this isn't a good idea and that the people here trying to offer you some alternate solutions and they could be more helpful if you let them.

[Superscribe]

He
Hey D'Art, I agree with what you wrote, but I was trying to make a different point in that particular post. Since it appears to have caused some confusion, I went back and tried to clarify. Added parts are [in brackets].

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SuperS,

I can't quite figure what you understood from the original, so re-read and feel free to re-state your concerns.

Cheers.

Your clarifications helped, and some of my concerns were addressed.

I think there are some important rules many coaches hold dear:

1) All kids have the to potential to be stellar athletes
2) Hardwork is key to becoming a stellar athlete
2) Besides hardwork nobody is quite sure what exactly is going to unlock the kids potential to be a stellar athlete.

that's what i got from coaches who i looked up to, anyway. it has been bolstered by books i've read, and stellar athletes i've talked to. what i'm getting from your post, Mr. E, is that if a youth soccer player is fat, lazy, and untalented enough, you can write him off from ever getting any real benefit from traveling abroad (getting a scholarship, getting help with admissions, landing a deal with ... whatever soccer club). or maybe you meant that for a player lacking basic skills that any coach could teach domestically, there's no need to go international.

there are lots of good reasons to travel and see differences in the sport you are playing. i think LEAST of them is you being able to pick up a few tips and tricks in brazil and then schooling all your domestic competition later. the more important thing is to keep a kid motivated so that they get better than they are presently. we're taking for granted that a youth is going to keep wanting to develop, which is often not the case. knowing how your sport is, how many other people working at it, and seeing different ways to practice can help.

back to our fat, lazy, no good youth who wouldn't get a second look from a scout. could this youth turn into a good player in a year or two with the right motivation/connections/opportunities? i bet nobody really knows. with that out of the way, what exactly is going to make this FLNG youth get the motivation to become a good player in a year or two? i bet nobody knows that, either.

so if you are operating from the belief that this kid has the potential, then something is missing, because FLNG hasn't tapped into anything but the lay's potato chips. what is missing? that's a big question that drives people over seas. if they had "what is missing" in their backyard, FLNG would be growing into a soccer monster. if we could pull ourselves up from boot straps, i wouldn't have my ridiculous billable rate as a consultant.

the "what if" question is a strong temptation. its basically gambling, and good golly do people love to gamble.

i think that if you're already a good soccer player, everybody understands why you want more competition, so i won't get into that.

more to the topic at hand, if going to NYC because it costs more and because it makes the kids happy to keep fencing, then it's definitely worth it.

[erooMynohtnA]

Over and out

Over means "I am done talking, please respond."
Out means "I am done talking, do not respond."
They are mutually exclusive.

[piste off]

I have a few students that look to have good potential. I would like them to start fencing with higher level opponents on a regular basis. I'm based in Virginia and am considering a once a month road trip to New York to fence. Quality strip time is needed and perhaps to attend clinics or camps as well. Any suggestions for clubs or other options would be welcome. These kids are ages 10 to 14

Epee opportunities for 10-13 yos in the NYC area are fairly spotty. I'm not sure you will find what you are looking for, or that it will meet your expectations. Things kick in around age 14, as at that age if the kid has game they can mix with the older fencers. Before that they will get destroyed. The gap is just too big.

That said... FDAD (as always) provided great information. But like Allen I would have thought DCFC was a logical first choice before exploring the NYC scene.

Of the three, FC is the one to try. NYAC isn't an option for the youngest, and unless the 14 yos are the top in the country (or true A's) they won't get in. Empire has some great epeeists at the very top end, but again not appropriate I think (and there is no open bouting).

That leaves FC, which probably has the most "range" of the three. There are youth epee classes that you might find some of what you seek; for example Kornel's on Sundays.

R-

[RECON]

Watch Jersey Shore.

Those are the kinds of people you will have your kids fencing with. Do you really want that?

[dramamine]

Watch Jersey Shore.

Those are the kinds of people you will have your kids fencing with. Do you really want that?

brb booking plane tickets to take all my 11 year old students to new york