Any web developers about? Want a fun project?

[fearnothing]

I'm currently studying a computing degree and have some freelance experience with web development; I also run my University's fencing club. This combination resulted in the idea for a little pet project - an open source web application to run fencing tournaments with.

I've only seen a few tournament applications around and all of them seem to cost money (which is fair enough), have limitations on what devices/platforms can run them, be specific to a region, etc. - and none of them are web based.

Now maybe the market's saturated, or there's no requirement for this, but I'd love to do it anyway. If you feel like joining in, and you have skills that can be used, please contact me at:
opensourcefencing@gmail.com

I'm interested in hearing from people who have experience with:
PHP development
MySQL or PostGRESQL
Project lifecycles
Open source licensing

Of course, enthusiasm for the idea is also a must!

[Bonehead]

I'm currently studying a computing degree and have some freelance experience with web development; I also run my University's fencing club. This combination resulted in the idea for a little pet project - an open source web application to run fencing tournaments with.

I've only seen a few tournament applications around and all of them seem to cost money (which is fair enough), have limitations on what devices/platforms can run them, be specific to a region, etc. - and none of them are web based.

Now maybe the market's saturated, or there's no requirement for this, but I'd love to do it anyway. If you feel like joining in, and you have skills that can be used, please contact me at:
opensourcefencing@gmail.com

I'm interested in hearing from people who have experience with:
PHP development
MySQL or PostGRESQL
Project lifecycles
Open source licensing

Of course, enthusiasm for the idea is also a must!

Don't have a ton of time ATM, but would be glad to help with sections if need be.

[fearnothing]

as a PHP coder? Any help will be welcome.

At this moment, I have barely anything more than just the idea to do this. I'm sketching out some requirements, trying to make sure it will cover all the basic needs of a tournament, so this really is the very beginning.

[Bonehead]

ASP, PHP, MySQL, html, css, javascript, ajax, apache, iis, whatever technologies you want to implement this in. I also have already written a (crappy) piece of tournament management software in Java (I wouldn't recomend reusing any of the code).

You should also talk to the 14m guy/guys.

[tchwojko]

and none of them are web based

Why do you want it web based?

[epeemike81]

man, I'm all for open source, but when there's a product already in existence which is clearly lightyears ahead of where the first 500 versions of this project are likely to be and it's available with free updates for a one time nominal fee... not sure I see the point.

-m

[fearnothing]

Why do you want it web based?

Because once you've set it up, you can then use anything you like to manage it from your standard Windows laptop right down to a smartphone. I'll concede it's not that big a deal, but it means you don't have to place any limits on who can use it, so long as your web code follows standards.

Plus, I learnt lots of PHP and not very much C++. Kind of skews my perspective :P

[darius]

Certainly having a web-based platform would be cool.

It would be a good idea to purchase a copy of FencingTime and look at it as a model. There are a lot of aspects of running a fencing tournament which you won't realize are issues until things are crazy, and you think "wouldn't it be nice if my software did ____?" Dan's had the benefit of feedback from lots of folks who have been in that situation, and FT is the result.

darius

[fearnothing]

Being completely without the means to make such a purchase is one of the things that prompted me towards this idea in the first place! I've downloaded the trial version and despite the restrictions on it, I can tell it's a good quality piece of work. It's most definitely US-centric though, and my goal is to end up with something that is less tailored to a location and sufficiently capable to run at least a small regional tournament as well as inter-club competitions - people on a budget essentially.

[tchwojko]

Because once you've set it up,

Setting up a web app server is not trivial.

[epeemike81]

Being completely without the means to make such a purchase is one of the things that prompted me towards this idea in the first place! I've downloaded the trial version and despite the restrictions on it, I can tell it's a good quality piece of work. It's most definitely US-centric though, and my goal is to end up with something that is less tailored to a location and sufficiently capable to run at least a small regional tournament as well as inter-club competitions - people on a budget essentially.

You have the means to set up a web server to run this app but not the means to pay a one time $50 fee for a piece of software? That seems... unlikely.

-m

[tchwojko]

Being completely without the means to make such a purchase is one of the things that prompted me towards this idea in the first place! I've downloaded the trial version and despite the restrictions on it, I can tell it's a good quality piece of work. It's most definitely US-centric though, and my goal is to end up with something that is less tailored to a location and sufficiently capable to run at least a small regional tournament as well as inter-club competitions - people on a budget essentially.

If you can't pay $100 (and a cost that can be spread across multiple tournaments), I'm not sure how you can afford to run a tournament.

[Bonehead]

I've thought about this before:

First the cons. Obviously there exist a few other applications that will be more seasoned at just basically all around better than anything your gonna make right off the bat. Fencing time is the obvious one.

Secondly any tournament that doesn't have internet access will not be able to run this software (possibly with some exceptions). I assuming here that this software would be created as open source and a number of people would run hosted services.

So why would you want to make a web based app?

First of all, it's cross platform right out of the box. My coach in Calgary is a Mac guy (and MAC GUY ONLY!). As far as I know there isn't a good OS X solution for fencing tournaments.

Secondly, it's all ready networked. This would allow (for an event with multiple points of internet access, a rarity I know), multiple mini-DTs to manage the tournaments. With a cheap wireless router this could be a big deal. Poule bouts could (potentially) come in instantly. DT could watch in real time which poules need extra stripping and refs to catch up. If done well (and if the DT manages it well) this could be a really good thing. (It could also be a pile of **** if it's not built well though).

This also allows for the potential of mobile device support. If the backend is built well, it's easy enough to built a front end client for iPads, iphones, Androids, whatever. Imagine scoring a bout on your mobile, and pressing 'submit' and it goes to the DT right away.

As an open source application, there exists a HUGE programmer base that could work on this. I bet you could wrangle up at least 4-5 people that have posted on fencing.net in the last little while that could help build this. If you do it in MySql and PHP lots of people will be able to add their two cents. Plus it will be Free, and it will be ours! No offense to the Fencing time guys (guy?). They built a fantastic product, and they deserve every penny they earn. But there is something to be said about having something that belongs to everyone, and that you can still call your own. Call me an idealist.

Finally, depending how you build it, you might be able to have browser cached versions or desktop versions without doing any extra coding. iPad and Iphone already support this (obviously you'd lose the whole MySQL/PHP side, so it would have to be entriely javascript/html as I understand it, but it's still doable). If you did it right you could have both versions running together so that it would work with internet access on a MYSQL database, or could handle small events in non-networked feature cut-back local versions.

I mean, if your hoping to make any money, or even want to build something that's gonna replace Fencing in the next year or two, well you're dreaming. But as a fun project to hone your coding skills and hell, might even be useful to someone somewhere (maybe), then why not?

[tchwojko]

Secondly any tournament that doesn't have internet access will not be able to run this software (possibly with some exceptions). I assuming here that this software would be created as open source and a number of people would run hosted services.

If it's done right you just need a network, not an internet connection.

First of all, it's cross platform right out of the box. My coach in Calgary is a Mac guy (and MAC GUY ONLY!). As far as I know there isn't a good OS X solution for fencing tournaments.

This is a better answer.

Secondly, it's all ready networked. This would allow (for an event with multiple points of internet access, a rarity I know), multiple mini-DTs to manage the tournaments. With a cheap wireless router this could be a big deal. Poule bouts could (potentially) come in instantly. DT could watch in real time which poules need extra stripping and refs to catch up. If done well (and if the DT manages it well) this could be a really good thing. (It could also be a pile of **** if it's not built well though).

Security would be a minor issue. You don't want kids with smartphones mucking around with the results.

As an open source application, there exists a HUGE programmer base that could work on this. I bet you could wrangle up at least 4-5 people that have posted on fencing.net in the last little while that could help build this.

Number of people that have the skills = lots.
Number of fencers that have the skills = quite a few.
Number of fencers that have the skills that would work for free = not so many.
Number of fencers that have the skills that would work for free and be able to do decent UI, testing, bug fixing = ?

If you do it in MySql and PHP lots of people will be able to add their two cents. Plus it will be Free, and it will be ours! No offense to the Fencing time guys (guy?). They built a fantastic product, and they deserve every penny they earn. But there is something to be said about having something that belongs to everyone, and that you can still call your own. Call me an idealist.

I really don't understand the zeal to give away other people's expertise and then claim ownership. (Or giving away one's own expertise, even moreso.) I much prefer supporting a developer who makes a good product by paying for it (e.g. AskFRED, FencingTime, SmugMug). Free apps tend to suck (not all, but many). (I have nothing against Open Source, however.)

I mean, if your hoping to make any money, or even want to build something that's gonna replace Fencing in the next year or two, well you're dreaming. But as a fun project to hone your coding skills and hell, might even be useful to someone somewhere (maybe), then why not?

This I agree with.

[fearnothing]

Actually there are perfectly feasible ways of running the software with no web access at all. If it's built in PHP/MySQL, then it can be hosted using software like XAMPP and run on Windows, OS X, Linux and more. Then if you have any kind of network said laptop is connected to, even an ad hoc one created by the computer itself, it will behave as a web server and other devices can use the app as much as they like, without any sign of an internet connection whatsoever. Furthermore, having been an avid observer of the direction of technology for the past decade, the whole world is slowly heading in the direction of more mobile devices, and more web-based applications.

And regardless of anyone volunteering to help me, I'm going to do it anyway, just to prove that I can, and because variety is the spice of life. It just might not be as good as if I get some help.

[tchwojko]

It just might not be as good as if I get some help.

It might be better without help. Too many cooks... You also then have to set up distributed source code control, a means of bug tracking, avoid stepping on each others' work, breaking others' work, etc. Not hard, just another headache that might not help your goals.

[Bonehead]

If it's done right you just need a network, not an internet connection.

I envisioned something like wordpress. Build the framework, and yeah they could set up a local server, but with the same framework x and y third parties could host a website that offered a web service that you can log into and run the app over the internet (if you weren't so inclined to set up a server of your own).

I really don't understand the zeal to give away other people's expertise and then claim ownership. (Or giving away one's own expertise, even moreso.) I much prefer supporting a developer who makes a good product by paying for it (e.g. AskFRED, FencingTime, SmugMug). Free apps tend to suck (not all, but many). (I have nothing against Open Source, however.)

I dunno, I don't really have any urge to own any of the code I write. Yeah, I'd like to be able to make a living, but almost equally as much as that, I'd like people to enjoy and benefit from what I do. The idea open source just kind of appeals to me in that sense. Not that I work in open source, I have some other people paying me to own the code that I write (which isn't much different except that they benefit instead of everyone).

Just a matte of taste though.

[tchwojko]

I dunno, I don't really have any urge to own any of the code I write. Yeah, I'd like to be able to make a living, but almost equally as much as that, I'd like people to enjoy and benefit from what I do. The idea open source just kind of appeals to me in that sense. Not that I work in open source, I have some other people paying me to own the code that I write (which isn't much different except that they benefit instead of everyone).

Just a matte of taste though.

No, it's a matter of making a living, as you said yourself.

You like getting paid, whether you own what you write is simply a matter of how much risk you want to take.

I work for Oracle, I give up my rights to the software in exchange for a steady paycheck. I don't have to do sales, marketing, HR, support, localization, etc. I lose the upside, but there's a lot of crap and uncertainty I don't have to deal with. I'm okay with that trade.

I'm good at software, and I'd rather be paid to do that full time instead of washing cars or mowing lawns so I can squeeze in a hobby in writing software.

I don't mind competing against free software, I just don't understand the choice to give away what you're good at in order to need a full time job you don't like as much.

And finally open source is not the same as free. Open means your customers get to see what you wrote. No secrets. Kind of like being able to see in the kitchen of a restaurant. That doesn't mean you don't have to pay for the meal.

[Bonehead]

...

Yeah, I work for a small web company, and feel the same about sales and all that jazz. I'm not a business guy and don't really want to be. Let the suits figure that stuff out.

I was gonna write a long diatribe about open source software, but I don't think this is the right forum for it. I will say, I do think that software writers should be compensated (though I don't have a problem volunteering my software skills anymore than i occasionally help out other fencers with my fencing, coaching, or armouring skills), but through a different system that doesn't require IP.

I work for Oracle

I guess you wouldn't build it in MySQL then

[fearnothing]

I envisioned something like wordpress. Build the framework, and yeah they could set up a local server, but with the same framework x and y third parties could host a website that offered a web service that you can log into and run the app over the internet (if you weren't so inclined to set up a server of your own).

That could easily be a later goal, but if you have the core tournament application working first, you can then build a framework to contain it as you envisioned.