Fencing Banned On Campus?

[Mulligan]

Here is an interesting rumor that I heard tonight. The rumor is that a fencer in Michigan was recently arrested for carrying his fencing equipment across campus at Western Michigan University. The reason.....it is illegal to have a weapon on campus. The same person told me that the fencing club there has been disbanded for the same reasoning. Has anyone heard anything like this?

Can you imagine the impact on our sport if this mentality spreads to other campuses? It is important that we do not allow the legal system to define foils, epees and sabres as ACTUAL weapons. They are obviously not designed to cause bodily harm, in fact they are quite the opposite. They are sporting goods designed to imtitate actual weapons without causing actual bodily harm. I am told that Kellogg Community College has a similar ban on fencing due to a "no weapons on campus" policy.

It is a violation of state law in Michigan to carry a weapon onto public school property, and there have been some ridiculous cases of enforcement of that law. (For example a grade school student was expelled from school for bringing a plastic knife in his lunch for the purpose of spreading cheese on crackers....clearly the intent of the law was to prevent students bringing knives that can do harm onto campus....not to prevent them from bringing a perfectly safe plastic cheese spreader to school for lunch)

Does anyone have any good ideas on how to combat this? One thought that i had was that other, more "mainstream" sports might be challenged. (like Baseball.....baseball bats are a much more efficient weapon than a foil. Or how about the Javelin....the Javelin is not just a device that aproximates a weapon, it is an actual spear quite capable of killing)

Dan Mulligan

[Gibo]

At William and Mary, I had to sign an "Illegal Knives Waiver." It basically said I was required to keep the things locked away at the designated practice facility. Of course, when returning from tournaments, etc, it can be hard to get over there. I also have to bring them back to the room occasionally for repairs. Most of the authorities don't check what's in the bag anyway, provided you aren't running around screaming with a sabre or something

[Peregrinus]

The best offense against this sort of thing is publicity. If this kind of nonsense is exposed to the harsh light of day, they may change the policy to keep from looking like complete cretins.

But make sure you get your facts straight. Ask the athletic director's office if there is such a ban, and the campus safety department, too. (Also check with K College to verify that rumor.)

Whenever I hear these sorts of stories, I have a sudden urge to say "Urban Legend?" So be certain it isn't one before you proceed.

If it's true, then a few letters to the editor and calls to the newspaper should be enough to get the ball rolling. You might also recruit the fencing staffs and the athletic departments from MSU, Wayne State, U Detroit Mercy, and U of M to weigh in on your side; that might snag some people's attention.

[lochinvar]

Good advice. You might also contact the NCAA and Sports Illustrated--now those are some HEAVY guns.

The bigger stink you raise, the more they might be inclined to want to keep it quiet by making an exception for 'sporting equipment'.

[Inquartata]

Why fight it, it's "for the children", after all...

See, that's whut yew awl git fer livin' back in the sissified East, yew should oughta move out West where a feller can still pack a hawgleg, er, I mean, a fencin' weapon....

[Aoife]

My mum was asking about how the school stores the foils here, and she was concerned by the answer 'in the corner of the PE cupboard' (which is never locked). She argued that they could be a weapon, but my simple answer was 'so could a sharpened pencil'.

I find the above stories rather incredible, myabe it's a US thing.... but on the other hand, we've recently been given plastic knieves and forks in the school canteen (which are hopeless to eat with, let alone stab anyone) because of safety concerns.


(the javalines are locked up, but only because they're up at the playing field in a shed, not in the main builing)

[sallearmourer]

I have email this page to the USFA to see if the have heard anything about this.



Tim

[Mulligan]

Actually, I heard the rumor from an instructor at Kellogg. It seems that a student that gave a presentation at Kellogg on fencing had to get special permision and be escorted to class by security with the equipment.

The dictionary defines a weapon as:
1. An instrument of offensive of defensive combat; something to fight with; anything used, or designed to be used, in destroying, or injuring an enemy

Fencing equipment is actually design to be very ineficient at injuring an enemy. therefore they are NOT weapons. They are being categorized as such because they LOOK like weapons to the average person, and they are used to SIMULATE combat.

We could actually fence with PVC water pipe. Would that make PVC water pipe a weapon? Plumbers would have a hard time doing thier job.

Seriously, if the precedent is set that allows fencing equipment to be defined as weaponry we could lose ALL the high school fencing clubs (and U of M, MSU and Wayne State fencing programs could get axed)
Dan Mulligan

[jeff]

Originally posted by Aoife
(the javalines are locked up, but only because they're up at the playing field in a shed, not in the main builing)

I first read this as "javalinas", a pig-like beastie often found in the SouthWest part of the USA. (eg, see http://www.llnet.net/~heinatz/javalina.html for pix). Granted, they can be aggressive if cornered, but it seemed excessive to lock them in a shed. Sorry, I couldn't resist....

The actual story is too silly, IMHO a result of fear and bureacratic thinking to avoid lawsuit. Sigh.

[magma]

i find this difficult to believe, but i believe it. they only answer would be for your coaches to jointly approach the president of the university and insist that their security staff receive 'training' in this subject.

[Zelda]

I heard of something similar happening on a British Navy base. The Junior ratings were coming back from training at the civilian club with the Lt. in charge (who is a very good friend of mine). They were stopped at the gate for ID card checks and their sabres confiscated for being a potential weapon....I remember my friend was livid in his email to me about it.....it took them a couple of hours the next morning to convince security that the sabres werent dangerous weapons.

[magma]

it's some form of harrassment. they let total nuts go into gun shows and purchase machine guns, and they even let me into a gun club to practice but the "kicker" is that the club had a machine gun, IN THE WINDOW, pointing out, and it was mounted on a tripod. The person in charge was getting ready for the big one. I was given 66 rounds of amunition and told to start shooting, while a guy pushed buttons for a few targets. [i only missed one shot, but the experience was worth it]. Now tell me, which was more dangerous, me with a loaded . 45 or an experienced fencer with a few sabers in a sealed equipment bag?

[DamedEscrime]

hmmmm.. i once stabbed a boy with a pencil in my 7th grade english class..... He was an annoying little bugger.

[Inquartata]

In a country which disciplines 3rd graders for pointing a finger at a classmate and saying "Bang, bang!", or a high schooler for having a butter knife in the bed of his pickup ( from helping someone move), no amount of "weapon" paranoia from the educational bureaucracies would surprise me.

BTW, Mang---er, Magma, no one is buying any machineguns at gunshows without a Class III license, the obtaining of which requires a rather stringent background check and some pretty strict conditions ( such as the one which mandates that you must allow ATF inspection any time they please, without a warrant or even prior notice ). As far as I am aware, no legally owned fully automatic weapon has ever been used in a crime in this country; illegally converted semiautos are another matter, but you don't find these at gunshows, either---at least not at any I've ever been to.

[Aoife]

She argued that they could be a weapon, but my simple answer was 'so could a sharpened pencil'.

i once stabbed a boy with a pencil in my 7th grade english class..... He was an annoying little bugger

As if to prove the danger of writing impliments, I'm currently watching the bloody seep through a bandage from where I managed to stab myself in the finger with a fountain pen. As I reeled in shock from the pain of metal striking bone my first though was 'At least it's not my weapon hand.'

Granted, they can be aggressive if cornered, but it seemed excessive to lock them in a shed.

Of course we don't keep the javalinas locked in a shed- they're free to wander the school grounds

[lochinvar]

We used to have a saying in the Navy:
"They shoot the mice and let the elephants roam free..."

In any case, I have it in mind to call campus security and/or the athletic departments of both Western Michigan and Kellogg Com. College on Monday to either verify or negate the rumor(s) that fencing is/was banned on those campuses, why if so, and whether or not anyone was arrested recently in either place for carrying fencing equipment on campus.

We can speculate to our heart's content, but there's no substitute for hard information from the source.

I'll let you all know what I find out.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Why quash a perfectly good rumor with cold, hard facts?

If it turns out to be an urban legend-flavored story, THEN what will we talk about?

[sallearmourer]

You know what I find funny about this is that anything can be
used as a weapon in the right hands. From a rolled up newspaper to a pencil . I have shot expert with about everything
in the Army inventory plus stuff that wasn't in the inventory. From the colt 45 to the 9mm from the M14 rifle to the Ma Duce. I have used a fencing sabre to disarm a knife weilding mugger and left him black and blue from the blade action. The Omaha Neb police thought it was funny as Hades see the guy cowering and begging to get him away from me.


Tim

[qatet]

The Omaha Neb police thought it was funny as Hades. . .

Because Hades in his daughter-stealing, pomegranate-eating, Eurydice-almost-freeing glory is oh so very funny. Hunh.

Sorry. Orfeo on the brain.

[MikeHarm]

I had the police stop me when I was walking across EMU's campus once with a bag full of my fencing gear. I made sure when the officer asked what was in my bag to say fencing equipment instead of my weapons, showed him my bag making a point of the non-sharp tips on them, asked the officer if he was interested in joining the fencing club and was able to go on my way without any difficulties.

I could see it going a lot differently if I had just told him it was my weapons and mouthed off after getting handcuffed as a result. I think the best way to combat legal difficulties is to use the right words when talking about fencing to people not in the sport, it avoids a lot of trouble.