Flicking to the hand in epee

[edew]

Originally posted by BugabooX
Quick - someone ask Edew. He knows everything.

Epee wrist flicking was an early-90s tactic/technique. Countermeasures developed since then have stopped the effectiveness of flicks. Only complete novices will be caught on the receiving end of wrist flicks.

If one still wants to, I guess use a pistolgrip and squeeze the last three fingers hard. As stated by others, if you have to cock your hand to deliver the flick, it'll be too late as your opponent will hit you before you can come down.

[BugabooX]

re squeezing fingers hard:
Alternately, you could loosen those last three fingers, controlling the weapon between thumb and forefinger, and visualize "pulling a gun trigger" as you flick. Fewer muscles tightening in opposition; more relaxed response for additional actions.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by edew
Epee wrist flicking was an early-90s tactic/technique. Countermeasures developed since then have stopped the effectiveness of flicks. Only complete novices will be caught on the receiving end of wrist flicks.

That all depends on how you set it up. If you mean that only rank beginners will be caught by a simple flick to the wrist, then you are right. by the same token, only beginners would be caught by a simple straight attack. Flicks are just another way to get a touch. they work against everybody, its just a matter of how much set up you have to do, and how much margin of error you have.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
That all depends on how you set it up. If you mean that only rank beginners will be caught by a simple flick to the wrist, then you are right. by the same token, only beginners would be caught by a simple straight attack. Flicks are just another way to get a touch. they work against everybody, its just a matter of how much set up you have to do, and how much margin of error you have.

-m

True, but you can't deny that few of the top international epee fencers right now flick at all. But then again, maybe if they were to fence Arndt Schmitt it would be different, flicking all over the place... ;-)

[edew]

That's right. If you watch any of the recent WC tapes, you will see virtually zero flicking by any of the fencers. There's still prodding to the wrist, but few employ flicking as a way to get it there.

There's almost ZERO flicking among the top women epeeists.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by edew
That's right. If you watch any of the recent WC tapes, you will see virtually zero flicking by any of the fencers. There's still prodding to the wrist, but few employ flicking as a way to get it there.

There's almost ZERO flicking among the top women epeeists.

unfortunately, my club is in dire need of some new tapes, so I can't comment on what is seen at world cups. however, I can point out that fencers like Marc Oshima and Eric Hansen use the flick in their games.

As for women's epee, women have always used the flick significantly less than men.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
unfortunately, my club is in dire need of some new tapes, so I can't comment on what is seen at world cups. however, I can point out that fencers like Marc Oshima and Eric Hansen use the flick in their games.

Yes, you are talking about people who have been trained and formed during that period, the early 90s. Marc Oshima doesn't fence national tournaments anymore, at least I don't remember seeing his name on the sheets in Colombus or San Diego, and I don't know if he fenced last year... Eric Hansen uses a typical early 90s - Arndt Schmitt like - German fencing style. We have an exchange post-doc student at Stanford from our club and even though he is not as athletic as Eric, I find a lot of similarities in their game. The only difference is that the post-doc student pretty much doesn't flick. So I conclude the only reason Eric Hansen is able to get away with flicking is because he makes up for it with athleticism, and because he has been trained all of his life to use it. All of the younger fencers at the top of the national points list (Soren Thompson, Ben Solomon, Seth Kelsey, Cody Mattern) don't flick at all. They are also the ones who are giving trouble to people of Eric's generation in the tournaments because they know how to deal with the flick. The shift is happening before our very eyes!

[magma]

There's almost ZERO flicking among the top women epeeists. [/B][/QUOTE]

I haven't bought your tapes yet. The easiest target to flick to for me is the shoulder. it's probably smart to keep familiar with all techniques to keep from getting overwhelmed by an opponent who knows more than you. i had a very good bout with a very strong saborist using epee, i beat him 15-8 using just thrusts and one flick, because he had superior speed, i couldnt' take the chance with him, and relied on using classical, conservative techniques.

[edew]

Originally posted by magma

I haven't bought your tapes yet. The easiest target to flick to for me is the shoulder. it's probably smart to keep familiar with all techniques to keep from getting overwhelmed by an opponent who knows more than you. i had a very good bout with a very strong saborist using epee, i beat him 15-8 using just thrusts and one flick, because he had superior speed, i couldnt' take the chance with him, and relied on using classical, conservative techniques.

You go on right ahead flicking to the shoulder. Works well in foil, I'm told.

[a517dogg]

I use flick as a counterattack. It works cuz i'm tall, and i can time it right. flick step back parry riposte.

[edew]

Originally posted by veeco
Yes, you are talking about people who have been trained and formed during that period, the 90s. Marc Oshima doesn't fence national tournaments anymore... Eric Hansen uses a typical German fencing style. We have an exchange post-doc student at Stanford from our club and even though he is not as athletic as Eric, I find a lot of similarities in their game. The only difference is that the post-doc student pretty much doesn't flick. So I conclude the only reason Eric Hansen is able to get away with flicking is because he makes up for it with athleticism, and because he has been trained all of his life to use it. All of the younger fencers at the top of the national points list (Soren Thompson, Ben Solomon, Seth Kelsey, Cody Mattern) don't flick at all. They are also the ones who are giving trouble to people of Eric's generation in the tournaments because they know how to deal with the flick. The shift is happening before our very eyes!

Continuing with what Veeco says: the big flickers in the mid-90s were the NYAC fencers. Very successful then: Jon Normile, Chris O'Laughlin, Tamir Bloom, Ben Atkins, et al. Few of them are still around (Jon and Chris still fence occasional NACs, the others are completely retired). The newer crop of NY epeeists, including Greenhouse, Bratton, et al., don't use the flick that much.

Greenhouse uses the "evading arm" jab, where the arm moves all over the place, making it a tough target to get, while keeping the point towards the opponent's arm. While the opponent is partially mesmerized by the swinging arm, he hits the relatively steadier target.

I've referreed numerous epee bouts at NACs. I'm seeing much fewer attempts to flick. The opponents are keying on the attempted flicks: if one is tempted to make a flick, the opponent is ready, moves the hand away, and flies right at the opponent with a killer fleche.

Part of the reason why Eric Hansen isn't doing too well at recent NACs may be his predisposition to flicking when the time is inappropriate. I don't know what goes through people's (especially epeeists') minds while they're fencing, but in one bout with Eric Hansen that I refereed, he took innumerable flicks to the wrist. Maybe one touch for every ten tries. As I recall, he lost that bout, too.

[magma]

yes it does, but i don't rely on it

[edew]

Originally posted by a517dogg
I use flick as a counterattack. It works cuz i'm tall, and i can time it right. flick step back parry riposte.

If you need the riposte, it would mean that the initial flick failed.

How about, "flick, step back, gloat."

[magma]

i like that, the evading arm thing, it sounds easier than it probably is, my tendancy is to keep the arm fairly still, engarde, until i begin a preparation, but i have noticed others keeping more movement in the arm than i, practice practice, and now, goodbye!

[Kallisto]

Epee wrist flicking was an early-90s tactic/technique. Countermeasures developed since then have stopped the effectiveness of flicks. Only complete novices will be caught on the receiving end of wrist flicks.

Does Eric et. al. wish to discuss what those counter-measures were?

I have the finals of the 1996 Atlanta Olympic epee on tape, and the Russian Alexander Beketov is employing a huge flicking action against Kovacs and then Trevejo. Beketov gives away a couple of wrist stop-hits but still gains a number of touches himself through his flicks (and wins the Gold). He seems to display a lot of wrist when flicking but gets away with it somehow. I guess he practised a lot...

[a517dogg]

edew - this i also do.

my coach has me do the parry riposte at the end i think just to make sure, and to make surei keep my arm and body loose and ready for second actions.

[veeco]

Originally posted by Kallisto
Does Eric et. al. wish to discuss what those counter-measures were?

Step-in and hit open area. Epee fencing right now is about keeping your point as close to your opponent's wrist as possible.

I have the finals of the 1996 Atlanta Olympic epee on tape, and the Russian Alexander Beketov is employing a huge flicking action against Kovacs and then Trevejo. Beketov gives away a couple of wrist stop-hits but still gains a number of touches himself through his flicks (and wins the Gold). He seems to display a lot of wrist when flicking but gets away with it somehow. I guess he practised a lot...

Guess I should not bother asking why is it that we never heard from Beketov after that, while Kovacs is still on the circuit?

Beketov winning the gold in Atlanta was IMO one of the biggest upsets in fencing ever. He was just ON that day and could have been fencing with 2 left feet and still have won...

[epeefencer74]

A beat on the blade preceding the flick seems to work well for me.
1) it gets the opponent's weapon out of the way.
2) The upward bounce of my own weapon after the beat is used as the load for the flick.

I've cut down on using the flick though, opponents are smarting up to my beat-flick trick.

[edew]

Originally posted by Kallisto
Does Eric et. al. wish to discuss what those counter-measures were?

I have the finals of the 1996 Atlanta Olympic epee on tape, and the Russian Alexander Beketov is employing a huge flicking action against Kovacs and then Trevejo. Beketov gives away a couple of wrist stop-hits but still gains a number of touches himself through his flicks (and wins the Gold). He seems to display a lot of wrist when flicking but gets away with it somehow. I guess he practised a lot...

Well, first, some epeeists don't stand there in on-guard position, so it's not likely to hit the arm, since the arm isn't there. Another counter-measure is constantly hitting the blade. By doing so, it disrupts the opponent's ability to time a flick. Third is lots of movements ending with a dazzlingly fast attack or fleche to the upper arm or leg.

As Veeco said, where's Beketov now?

[magma]

after only one month of epee practice to the wrist, i don't think i'll use it anytime soon.