Low cost scoring machines

[jfarmer]

I swear we had talked about this, but my search-fu is failing me...

I'm about to purchase 2 to 4 scoring machines and was looking at the following:

Black Box Fencing: http://sites.google.com/site/blackboxfencing/

I like the design of this box, but haven't seen anything about how it is to use or durability. Looks like it's priced at ~$195 with shipping.

Physical Chess PCRS14Nano/PCRS15/PCRS16 on sale at $149/$299/$399 + shipping.

The first looks like a similar design to the Eigertek, but with slightly better led layout. The other 2 have remotes, timers, score-keeping functions, nice, but not really relevant for club use.

The Eigertek Eclipse is on sale at $280+ shipping, but I really, really, don't like the lights on it.

A fellow coach has a VSM setup, and while nice, my needs at the moment are "plug-in, select weapon, fence" now. (We are looking at VSM's when we can move to permanent facility.)

There was another that we talked about, but I can't find it.

We're planning to order Favero reels, but I've also been tempted by this offer from LP: Foil_Epee_Scoring_Set (Despite the title, the description says it's a 3 weapon box.)

We're currently using Favero ARM-01s & Reels, but they will be going away in the near future..

Thanks
John

[Purple Fencer]

Go VSM. It's a proven system and a great price...even if you have to by a dedicated netbook, it's still cheaper than most other systems, especially with the features it has.

[shlepzig]

Was the other perhaps the Firefly?

Firefly

I have seen these at a couple clubs and they work pretty well.

-Shlep

[jfarmer]

Go VSM. It's a proven system and a great price...even if you have to by a dedicated netbook, it's still cheaper than most other systems, especially with the features it has.

Like I said, we've been using a VSM unit in another club. There are things I like about it, things I don't like. Part of that is driven by the nature of my club's current nomad existence. We setup & tear down every night, bags of gear live in my van 6 days/week. Part of our concern for the VSM is indeed the cost. $175 for the unit, plus a working laptop, means that we're spending ~$250 to $400/strip. In that range, I might as well order Favero ARM01's @$400/strip...

I like the VSM, and when we get a permanent space, I will probably install them. But for now, I'm not seeing enough "bang for the buck" to overcome the things we don't like.

[jfarmer]

Was the other perhaps the Firefly?

Firefly

I have seen these at a couple clubs and they work pretty well.

-Shlep

Yes! And $239 plus shipping puts it in the hunt.

I would have to see one in person, or see some videos of it in operation before determining if I could use it. Part of the problem I have with the Eigertek is the led layout. I simply cannot see the on-target/off-target signaling it uses. I'm not color blind, but am somewhat insensitive to some color gradients. One of the pluses of the BlackBox is the size of the lights. While there are many bad things one can say about the TCA boxes (I have 2 older ones, might be for sale!), their lights were very visible and definitive....

[DangerMouse]

The firefly machines are a bit hard to see, but in terms of portability and features, they are hard to beat. My club has a firefly, an SG-12, and a Favero and the Favero is by far the best of those three. I also have a VSM that runs on a computer I bought for $25 bolted to an LCD monitor I bought for $15. The VSM is fantastic, but the desktop/monitor is definitely a bit heavy.

[Rockstar44]

Until the VSMs come as a self contained unit, I would recommend against them. Setup is a PITA and by the time you install all the add-ons they cost as much as an ARM-5.

[Purple Fencer]

Until the VSMs come as a self contained unit, I would recommend against them. Setup is a PITA and by the time you install all the add-ons they cost as much as an ARM-5.

What add ons? They're nowhere NEAR the cost of an ARM-5, even if you have to buy a netbook.

An ARM-5 runs over $800 after tax...the VSM's nowhere near that cost...and I've never found setup to bne that difficult...you're just plugging in 2 additional items (the box connecting the floor cords to the computer, and the receiver for the controller)...or are you talking about the floor reels as well?

[Rockstar44]

A television set. Cables. You also have to buy aftermarket remotes so that you are not interfering with nearby machines. Protective items for the expensive television. Mounting systems. A proper VSM setup runs about $800. Been there. Done that. At this point in time, the ARM-5 is the superior system.

I know that this will change as the VSM is streamlined, and I think that VSM is the future, but right now there are too many hassles involved.

Besides, most of the fencers hate it.

[Fencergrl]

I came across this today... certainly fits the "low cost" requirement. Don't know anything else about it.
http://www.fencing.net/reviews/products/882.html

[Purple Fencer]

A television set. Cables. You also have to buy aftermarket remotes so that you are not interfering with nearby machines. Protective items for the expensive television. Mounting systems. A proper VSM setup runs about $800. Been there. Done that. At this point in time, the ARM-5 is the superior system.

It's designed to run off a computer...a laptop -- even a small netbook -- is perfectly fine (and a damn sight easier to see than an eigertek). You set in on a tavble the same as any scoring box. The TV display Shawn uses is not necessary. He already sells the remote, and I found no interference when using one at Gryphon Fencing (Shawn's salle)....which has 6 VSM systems in operation/.

Besides, most of the fencers hate it.

Not that I've ever seen....YMMV, but fencers out here don't really care so long as it works.

Now there ARE some directors who are Luddites, but that's not the same.

[DangerMouse]

A television set. Cables. You also have to buy aftermarket remotes so that you are not interfering with nearby machines. Protective items for the expensive television. Mounting systems. A proper VSM setup runs about $800. Been there. Done that. At this point in time, the ARM-5 is the superior system.

I know that this will change as the VSM is streamlined, and I think that VSM is the future, but right now there are too many hassles involved.

Besides, most of the fencers hate it.

Funny, I could swear that my total cost was less than $300 including homemade bungie reels. The software installation took me about 2 minutes, although bolting the monitor to the computer to make it more portable took about 30 minutes. Sure that's about 32 minutes more than dealing with a standard scoring machine. The fencers here don't like it any more or less than a standard machine. Sure an ARM-5 is a better option, but it was WAY out of my budget.

I know that if you have a large capital outlay, you might want to protect it, although clear plastic is not that expensive, but by using a $15 monitor, I don't have to worry about it at all. It is about the price of a new epee tip and barrel and lasts a whole lot longer.

[SJCFU#2]

I came across this today... certainly fits the "low cost" requirement. Don't know anything else about it.
http://www.fencing.net/reviews/products/882.html

I have one (I'm starting to acquire a nice little collection of scoring machines).

While it's a nice enough machine for practice it has it's limitations, especially for saber.

First off, there's the absence of a weapon selector switch - instead if it detects a B-to-C short upon start up is sets itself for foil, a C-to-C short causes it to switch to saber and if it doesn't detect anything it defaults to epee. I ended up added a self-centering toggle switch to mine so I can create the necessary shorts without necessarily having anyone plugged in, but that's more a work around than a solution.

Second there's the lack of yellow grounding lights. Probably not so important now that shorting your foil against your lame doesn't ground it out anymore (especially since an internal short in an epee will not prevent it from working) however some saber fencers apparently like to briefly touch their guards to their lames and see the yellow light as a check that everything is hooked up.

Finally there's the lack of white lights in saber. This shouldn't matter so long as everything else is working properly (which is less of a problem since we did away with captuers) however it's still part of the rules.

These issues make it less than ideal for competition, although it's excellent for practice (as I've already stated) and it's certainly among the lowest priced machine currently available. Plus the code is readily available for burning your own new timing chips (assuming you have the equipment).

[jjefferies]

Physical Chess PCRS14Nano/PCRS15/PCRS16 on sale at $149/$299/$399 + shipping.

The first looks like a similar design to the Eigertek, but with slightly better led layout. The other 2 have remotes, timers, score-keeping functions, nice, but not really relevant for club use.

We have the PCRS15. A fine machine just a tad overpriced. By european they mean Russian built. LED's are super bright. Remote works fine and provision for addition of remote lights looks to be sensible. As they are Russian made I would expect them to outlast almost anything else.

[chinateacher]

Until the VSMs come as a self contained unit, I would recommend against them. Setup is a PITA and by the time you install all the add-ons they cost as much as an ARM-5.

I really don't understand how set-up is such a pain. First time setting ours up took me about 5 minutes having never set-up a strip before. How hard is that? Four pieces of duct tape for the reels, 3 cables to plug in... it's not exactly rocket science. I think having a VSM as a self contained unit would kill much of the simplicity and some of the best features (price, simplicity, portability) of the system.

We're hoping to use ours on The Great Wall one of these days...

[Purple Fencer]

I really don't understand how set-up is such a pain. First time setting ours up took me about 5 minutes having never set-up a strip before. How hard is that? Four pieces of duct tape for the reels, 3 cables to plug in... it's not exactly rocket science. I think having a VSM as a self contained unit would kill much of the simplicity and some of the best features (price, simplicity, portability) of the system.

We're hoping to use ours on The Great Wall one of these days...

I suspect Rockstar did a permanent setup at a salle....HIS choice to do so, if so, and thus his choice on the additional costs. As designed as a portable system, the VSM can't be beat for ease and performance.

The only thing I've ever added to it was an external speaker, since the one on my old laptop sucked, even at full volume.

[LordShout]

You could do VSM for even cheaper if you buy an old machine at a 'local' computer shop. Not Best Buy but something independent that has a pile of 5 year old dells sitting in a backroom for 30 bucks a pop. Talk to the owner/manager about getting one without a CD drive, if you're nice enough they might even pull half the ram out and give you a discount. Reliable computers with XP SP2 can be had for super duper cheap at these places.

Another option is talking to local schools, businesses or midsized organizations that have old computers. Since they aren't supposed to throw them in the dumpster they're often willing to give them away because it saves disposal costs.

[veldetron]

We use the BlackBox at my fencing club in MN. We have two that we have used for a long time. One is even the older model we've had forever and it still works great. We just ordered another recently so we will have a third strip for tournaments.

I give them an A++

You also can't beat that they are the cheapest in the WORLD haha...

Good luck shopping!!!

[jjefferies]

You also can't beat that they are the cheapest in the WORLD haha...
Good luck shopping!!!

They're USD $179. The PCRS14Nano can be had for $149.
Note that there are pdf's descriptions available for the PCRS14Nano/PCRS15/PCRS16.
I asked the Russian manufacturer and they e-mailed me copies. Interestingly only the PCRS15 has provision for external lights. But it looks like it would be fairly straight forward to create them.

[SJCFU#2]

They're USD $179. The PCRS14Nano can be had for $149.
Note that there are pdf's descriptions available for the PCRS14Nano/PCRS15/PCRS16.
I asked the Russian manufacturer and they e-mailed me copies. Interestingly only the PCRS15 has provision for external lights. But it looks like it would be fairly straight forward to create them.

Better question to the manufacturer might be how do they handle timing updates.

If all it requires is pulling a chip from a socket and inserting a new one then that's not too bad.

If it requires replacing a chip that is soldered in (and crazy as it seem at least one manufacturer has been know to exactly do that) than it raises the question of whether or not you might be better off simply buying a new machine.

Sending the machine back to the manufacturer to be reprogrammed falls somewhere between those two extremes.