coupé with PIL? and how would you honestly call this situation.

[angrylemur]

okay. I come from a salle that fences in a way that abides the rules pretty reasonably, i think. We give some leeway on marching attacks but we aren't stupid about preparation, dérobement and PIL. but i have a question about how you guys would call this, and about PIL. I'm off fencing for a week so I can't ask my coach right away.

this is an action i try to set up quite often because i really like tricky point in line use.

fencer A does an attack, fencer B parries. Fencer A starts retreating, and fencer B pursues with a bent arm. A puts out PIL, and after several more steps, B makes a single search for the blade and attacks. A makes a succesful dérobement and the touch with PIL. double light.

now I know the rules say that A should get the touch, but how would you guys actually call this action?

what if, instead of making a disengage, fencer a makes a coupé? is the PIL still valid?

[Agent_V]

Uhh, isn't there an inherent contradiction there? Giving leeway on marching attacks means ignoring attacks in preparation when they actually exist, so how are you not stupid about preperation?
Well, about your question with PIL, this question was covered in a referee's seminar I was at a while ago. The PIL will get priority, and it doesn't matter whether it is an disengage or a coupe, both actions are completely equivalent in the ROW sense if done right. Now, the fact that fencer B has a bent arm is immaterial. Say B did just a double advance lunge with the arm continuously extending. If A presents a line during B's second advance and B searches for it, it's still the same call - line for A.
How I call that? Simple: just make the hand signal for PIL and give the touch for A, no words needed.
If A ended with a flick on B's shoulder instead, then it's still his touch, the call is attack in prep.

Ok, 'night,
-Alexander

[I see dead people]

what the heck is a pil?
is it eatable?

[sallearmourer]

PIL is Point In Line


Tim

[edew]

Originally posted by Agent_V
Uhh, isn't there an inherent contradiction there? Giving leeway on marching attacks means ignoring attacks in preparation when they actually exist, so how are you not stupid about preperation?
Well, about your question with PIL, this question was covered in a referee's seminar I was at a while ago. The PIL will get priority, and it doesn't matter whether it is an disengage or a coupe, both actions are completely equivalent in the ROW sense if done right. Now, the fact that fencer B has a bent arm is immaterial. Say B did just a double advance lunge with the arm continuously extending. If A presents a line during B's second advance and B searches for it, it's still the same call - line for A.
How I call that? Simple: just make the hand signal for PIL and give the touch for A, no words needed.
If A ended with a flick on B's shoulder instead, then it's still his touch, the call is attack in prep.

Ok, 'night,
-Alexander

A point in line better not end with a flick to the shoulder. If B attempts to take the blade and fails, and continues the attack, while A immediately attacks when B failed in taking the blade, then A has right of way. But if B fails to take the blade, continues with the attack and then A turns a point in line into a flick, that flick is a counter-attack.

In practice, B makes and attack that would cross swords with A's point in line, if A's PIL does not move. If A makes just disengages, the PIL remains valid. If A makes a coupe or bends the arm or wrist in any significant way, then the PIL is lost and any subsequent action by A, given what B is most likely doing under reality sense, would be considered a counter-attack (unless A makes an attempt to parry). A PIL has to constantly threaten the target, so a coupe, unless it's a very small one, would take it outside the target.

A flick would definitely not be part of the PIL. (It may be part of an attack into preparation if B is too eager during the search. I do that sometimes: I search to furtively for the blade and my opponent tires of disengaging and attacks me with a flick. But it's clear that I'm not attacking him in any way, otherwise, it's my attack and his counter-attack.)

[Agent_V]

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't mean to imply that after disengaging, a point-in-line could be turned into a flick, I meant that A could do a coupe when B searches, and it still would be A's point if he landed the coupe with the flick, since the right of attack had passed to him.
-Alexander

[Craig]

I'll break this down into the two situations:

fencer A does an attack, fencer B parries. Fencer A starts retreating, and fencer B pursues with a bent arm. A puts out PIL, and after several more steps, B makes a single search for the blade and attacks. A makes a succesful dérobement and the touch with PIL. double light.

The final action is:
A: Point in Line established
B: Search
A: derobement - touch

Touch for A.

I meant that A could do a coupe when B searches, and it still would be A's point if he landed the coupe with the flick, since the right of attack had passed to him.

For this action, A abandons the point in line and attempts an attack on preparation instead. In order for the attack on preparation to be valid, it must arrive before the attacker (B) has begun the final movement of the attack. (cf US Fencing Rules, t.59) In this case, (since you describe both hits arriving at the same time) I would award the touch to B.

Of course, being able to view a video clip of both of these actions would make it much easier to make the call.

Cheers,
Craig

[The0ne]

An attack into preperation does not have to come before the final action is started. For instance what if A attacks with a lunge, and on the lunge searches. B extends directly and disengages around the search. both hit. Its still B's touch.

-The0ne

[edew]

Originally posted by The0ne
An attack into preperation does not have to come before the final action is started. For instance what if A attacks with a lunge, and on the lunge searches. B extends directly and disengages around the search. both hit. Its still B's touch.

-The0ne

Not in this period of fencing.

[The0ne]

Not in this period of fencing?
excuse my ignorance but i don't understand. . .

-Isaiah

[Purple Fencer]

Eric's probably referring to the current state of the rules and how they are applied. If my final action (a lunge for example) has begun, it's mine all day long until that attack finishes, regardless of if you hit me first.

[Agent_V]

quote:
I meant that A could do a coupe when B searches, and it still would be A's point if he landed the coupe with the flick, since the right of attack had passed to him.



"For this action, A abandons the point in line and attempts an attack on preparation instead. In order for the attack on preparation to be valid, it must arrive before the attacker (B) has begun the final movement of the attack. (cf US Fencing Rules, t.59) In this case, (since you describe both hits arriving at the same time) I would award the touch to B.

Of course, being able to view a video clip of both of these actions would make it much easier to make the call."




Uhh, read t.59 again:
"When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to stop-touch; but to be valid the stop touch must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time;..."

That states nothing about when B searches. Ok, now read t.56:

"7. If the attacker, when attempting to deflect the opponents blade, fails to find it (derobement), the right of attack passes to the opponent."

So in the case that B searches, even if during his lunge, A successfully derobes (disengage OR coupe), and immediately starts an attack on B, then it is A's touch.

"Eric's probably referring to the current state of the rules and how they are applied. If my final action (a lunge for example) has begun, it's mine all day long until that attack finishes, regardless of if you hit me first."

Yeah, and if during your lunge you wound up with you weapon hand behind your mask and then proceeded to hit your opponent? It's not your touch if your opponent had started an attack while you were pulling back your arm.

Time for me to go fence now!
-Alexander

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Agent_V



Uhh, read t.59 again:
"When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to stop-touch; but to be valid the stop touch must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time;..."

Post all of t.59:

t.59 (d) When compound attacks are made, the opponent has the right to
stop hit; but to be valid the stop hit must precede the conclusion of the attack by an interval of fencing time; that is to say that the stop hit must arrive before the attacker has begun the final movement of the attack.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by Agent_V
quote:

"Eric's probably referring to the current state of the rules and how they are applied. If my final action (a lunge for example) has begun, it's mine all day long until that attack finishes, regardless of if you hit me first."

Yeah, and if during your lunge you wound up with you weapon hand behind your mask and then proceeded to hit your opponent? It's not your touch if your opponent had started an attack while you were pulling back your arm.

Time for me to go fence now!
-Alexander

Dude, if I could find a way to keep point in line with my weapon hand behind my mask, I'd be unbeatable!

Remember, the original question revolved around a point in line coupled with a coupe at the final moment...be current rules, if the coupe begins, the PIL ends. But if I clearly establish PIL (and - importantly - the REF realizes it!), I can do anything I want -- retreating advancing, standing still -- as long as I don't lose the line by breaking the arm/wrist (as in a coupe), get parried, or make a disengage action if there is NO attempt to parry in the first place.

A line is a line is a line....and a coupe REMOVES that line.

[The0ne]

Very true, but Agent_V's point is that it becomes an attack in preperation if the other guy searchs. . .
And Achilleus, thats about stop-hits, not attacks in preperation.

-The0ne

[achilleus]

These PIL questions come up often. The last one was hotly debated, until Bill Oliver was asked and gave a definitive answer. Then the debate continued until Craig reminded everyone that they should reread Bill's comments.

Noting this and observing fencers at various levels of competition, PIL seems to be the most difficult ROW action for people to understand, execute, and be officiated correctly. The only top level fencer I've seen use it effectively on a regular basis is Golubitsky.

Yet...

Originally posted by angrylemur

this is an action i try to set up quite often because i really like tricky point in line use.

The thought above sums it up nicely. People throughout the US love to use PIL even though the chances of getting it called are extremely remote.

Can anyone explain the fascination with this low percentage action?

[achilleus]

Originally posted by The0ne

And Achilleus, thats about stop-hits, not attacks in preperation.

-The0ne

That's the rule that Craig cited, and that's the rule that Agent_V posted.

If you want to argue the validity of it all, it's rather pointless, because any competent ref aware of current interpretations would call the action as attack - counter-attack.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
Remember, the original question revolved around a point in line coupled with a coupe at the final moment...be current rules, if the coupe begins, the PIL ends. But if I clearly establish PIL (and - importantly - the REF realizes it!), I can do anything I want -- retreating advancing, standing still -- as long as I don't lose the line by breaking the arm/wrist (as in a coupe), get parried, or make a disengage action if there is NO attempt to parry in the first place.

A line is a line is a line....and a coupe REMOVES that line.

No, the original question was based on a search to deflect the point in line, and queried whether a coupe was as valid as a disengage in maintaining right of way.

If the coupe is executed to derobe around a search on the PIL, what difference does it make what kind of direct attack is then executed? A flick, head cut, point attack...they're all valid after the coupe. Now a coupe WITHOUT a search for the PIL, that's another story.

[achilleus]

Originally posted by Capt. Slo-mo
If the coupe is executed to derobe around a search on the PIL, what difference does it make what kind of direct attack is then executed? A flick, head cut, point attack...they're all valid after the coupe. Now a coupe WITHOUT a search for the PIL, that's another story.

If you have line, then execute coupe to avoid a search, you lose line. No ref I know of would ever give you that touch.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Well, sure, you no longer have PIL, but you have maintained your right of way by successfully derobing from a search. What do you do with that right of way?

In sabre, if you have successfully couped, you're in a fine position to finish with a head cut, flank or the dreaded nipple-ectomy chest slash. (Don't laugh, thats what some of the kids at the club actually call it)

For the pointy weapon folks, one other poster talked about a flick...which seems reasonable if you've already got the weapon up and loaded. Just don't break the arm back close to guard during the action and lose the ROW, in either sabre or foil.

As for epee...if an epeeist did a coupe, wouldn't all the other epees laugh uproariously? Just wondering.

And remember, most folks who put out a point in line seldom seem to score with the move...they use it to draw a search, or to make their opponent pause momentarily in an advance, and allow a change in initiative.